[ChrisJ]

Did anyone in the UK see this program last night on BBC4?

"Documentary looking at why so many young Israelis use their National Service discharge bonus to go backpacking in India, with a high proportion experimenting with drugs".

Link below for the BBCi player. Runs for another 6 days from today

http://www.bbc.co.uk...on_pid=b00bbxnc

Interesting viewing.


Chris.

[Sherrydog]

ChrisJ, on May 16 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

Did anyone in the UK see this program last night on BBC4?

"Documentary looking at why so many young Israelis use their National Service discharge bonus to go backpacking in India, with a high proportion experimenting with drugs".

Link below for the BBCi player. Runs for another 6 days from today

http://www.bbc.co.uk...on_pid=b00bbxnc

Interesting viewing.


Chris.

Yes, saw it. Compelling stuff. So young yet been through so much. Now I know who Chabad House are and why they are there. I've always seen their office inside one of the hotels on Delhi's Main Bazaar. Sad to watch that documentary. I caught the credits at the end and saw it was from 2003, unless my eyesights is failing me.

[Shiver me Timbers]

I don't live in the UK, so can't watch it.....can you give me the gist? Then I might be able to comment on it.....

[ChrisJ]

Conor,

I’m no TV critic so forgive me!

Initially I think the director was trying to see if the trauma of military service in Israel was a factor in the traveling and drug taking. Interestingly, the majority of the guys interviewed said they enjoyed military service. One said it made him a man. Another that it made strong bonds with comrades that would not be experienced otherwise.

Only one interview shown contained a man telling how his platoon captain was killed during an operation which showed the real distress the individual felt.

The most interesting part for me was the more religious Israelis that go to India - the Parvati valley and Goa (where most of it was filmed) - to try to counteract the drug lifestyle and offer support to those that were drifting too far away in setting up what are best described as "safe houses" in the community.

Towards the end of the program the focus was on an ex-commando officer who went to India to return confused and paranoid countymen home – often by force from what was shown.

The documentary was made by an Israeli production team and was subtitled into English.


Chris.

[Shiver me Timbers]

Quote

Interestingly, the majority of the guys interviewed said they enjoyed military service. One said it made him a man. Another that it made strong bonds with comrades that would not be experienced otherwise.

This is certainly the impression I got from the majority of Israelis, male or female, that I've met.

I think the individual Israelis that you meet in India travel for pretty much the same reasons as the rest of us. Where the group mentality comes in is that many of them, despite their army experience, are just out of school, and maybe still a bit immature in a social, worldly sense, if you get me.....

In Ireland, and Britain I think, the majority of students, once they've finished school, head off to Spain or Greece for 2 weeks of boozing, sex and fighting. I did it myself, and I'll tell you, many people who find those Israeli kids in India obnoxious should have seen me and my mates (and indeed, the rest of the Irish) in the Canaries - every so often I think about some of the stuff I did on that holiday, and always end up shaking my head to myself, thinking 'Never again.....'

[cyberhippie]

The upshot of this kind of publicity is rather mean spirited I find. Israelis are now (I'm told) only allowed 3 month visas every two years, in some cases they are only getting a 1 month visa. This is I believe at the behest of the Israeli government. Citing reasons of drug addiction (over exaggerated) and people "leaving the flock"

A great shame IMHO as it would appear that India provides a perfect escape from the claustraphobia of the army and other aspects of Israeli life that many young men and women find distasteful. Not problems peculier to Israel I hasten to add (before Conor starts throwing things at me   ) just the impatience of youth imbibed in all of us at that time of life.  I remember spending passover with about 200 Israelis in Rishikesk at least 20 walked out of the service given by the resident Rabbi, this bullshit is what we try to escape was the reason they gave to me.
The army has mixed reactions from the Israelis I have spoken to, from out and out boredom, a feeling of closeness and camaraderie to part their childhood stolen from them in a atmosphere of violence.

Certainly I wonder that the Israeli institution sees guys letting there hair down and partying in a carefree lifestyle as more dangerous in character building and good citizenship, than sending them into dangerous situations where their uniform makes them a target.

I understand that military service is an unfortunate part of life in Isreal I only question this in light of a decision that so impacts on young lives who have already "done their bit" it seems to me almost an extension of the bondage to state they have already gone through.

Imagine your government limiting your travel options for these reasons I'm betting you would be pretty pissed off, as are I suspect are all the young guys and girls who face this infringement on their liberty.

I think looking at the long term effects of India might offer up a different view to the people who pushed for these rules. As Conor says they're mostly like any of us, Some will start a long term love affair with the country but I'm betting the majority live their six months of boom shanker and Enfields, only to return and lead largely ordinary lives as productive citizens. This seems to me to be a knee jerk reaction by Israel and is likely to be counter productive in bringing young Israelis "home" as they rail against authority.

[kullukid]

Yes I saw it, i've actually stayed in the same GH in Kalga, above Manikaran in the Parvati valley about 3-4yrs ago, where the first Israei guy was been interviewed. So i've spent time with/amongst them & yes the majority of them take drugs & seem to be able to handle it & yes they love to party (non-stop) a few of them explained to me that they felt they had "missed out" on those all important "Teenage Years" due to military service, so they come to India to party & make up for valuable lost time. I have also discussed the reason for the Shabad houses & warm houses in Manali & Kashol with a Israeli who didn't take drugs & feel he had to be part of a large group & his opinion was that the Rabbi's were religious extremists who had come to save "The Lost Sheep" & return them safely to the flock. I felt the programme was very one sided & gave a false impression about what goes on, since it was concentrating on "The Flip-outs" who are probably a very small %. Usually these are ones who've dropped some LSD in India for the first time in their lives after coming straight from the army where they have gone through & witnessed some horrible experiences of death,blood,bombings etc.......enough to make anyone "Flip  Out" on Acid really, maybe the Israeli Government should be looking closer to home for the cause of the real problems??? KK

Edited by kullukid, 17 May 2008 - 09:15 PM.

[priya]

Interesting thread!

When I was in Chennai, I met up with a young Israeli deserter at the GH where I was staying.  He did have major hang-ups - the one which appeared to be the most prevalent, was having witnessed his 'comrades' being wounded or killed.  His other hang-up was the act of killing and being the target of children from 'the other side'.  He was very much a loner and knew that if and when he returned to Israel, he'd be arrested for desertion.  I can understand why these youngsters need some sort of escape.  This guy was 19y.o.  

I too would've liked to have viewed the link, but..........

[crvlvr]

Priya said:

This guy was 19y.o.

That pretty much sums it up for me. The kind of trauma and stress that the young kids have to go to must be incredible -- especially when they did not have a choice to not  sign up. Further, ( have never been to Israel) it would seem like everyone is always on edge in the country due to random acts of violence. The only way to escape is to get out.   Given that Israelis are not allowed to visit almost any of their neighboring countries, India appears to be a logical choice.

I would love to watch the documentary. But got the same "only available in UK" message

Good news, I found this on youtube. can someone confirm if it is the same doc?

[dzibead]

crvlvr, on May 22 2008, 12:45 PM, said:

Good news, I found this on youtube. can someone confirm if it is the same doc?

Good catch, crvlvr!  Yay for YouTube!

[priya]

crvlvr, on May 22 2008, 10:45 PM, said:

That pretty much sums it up for me. The kind of trauma and stress that the young kids have to go to must be incredible -- especially when they did not have a choice to not  sign up. Further, ( have never been to Israel) it would seem like everyone is always on edge in the country due to random acts of violence. The only way to escape is to get out.   Given that Israelis are not allowed to visit almost any of their neighboring countries, India appears to be a logical choice.

I would love to watch the documentary. But got the same "only available in UK" message

Good news, I found this on youtube. can someone confirm if it is the same doc?

When I was in Israel - a good few years ago - I was amazed at how mature (in some respects) these kids were - given what they've seen/done.  They all appeared to be proud of serving their country, and their army isn't as strict as other armies.  For example, serving members are allowed to smoke in uniform, while on duty, grow their hair, beards etc - and not for religious reasons. The kids, on the whole, didn't seem resentful at all.  Admittedly, the situation has deteriorated to a large extent, so I don't know whether they would still feel as they did when I was there, but I did notice a very strong comeraderie, which really impressed me.

[crvlvr]

Although, I would have the liked the documentary to focus more on the impact these tourists are having on the locals.

[dzibead]

I wasn't that favorably impressed by either the dopers or the heavy handed "rescuers" - wouldn't care to spend 10 seconds in the company of either group, frankly.    The scenery was nice, though.

[crvlvr]

dzi,

I agree. If it was probably any other country that has 30,000 of these types of tourists "invading" certain areas, there would probably be much hue and cry by the locals.

Also, it was interesting to note that some of them felt more comfortable in India and did not want to go back. One guy stated he had been in India for 5 years. And to think of the big fuss that is made on the boards about over staying 180 day visas.

[Hyderabadi]

crvlvr, on May 23 2008, 04:48 PM, said:

And to think of the big fuss that is made on the boards about over staying 180 day visas.

Point!

But I sincerely wonder what kind of quality of life these overstayers  have?

I've personally experienced and continue to experience the hardships of 'legal immigration', to the US. We have, from day one done everything legally to be here btw. Even after all the expense by way of time and money we have put in, my younger son did not recieve his 'Green Card' as yet  (even though the rest of the 3 of us got it way back) and calling the USCIS reminds me of calling a Govt. of India office:

"Aap kataar mein hain. Krupiya prateeksha keejiye. blip . Aap kataar mein hain. Krupiya prateeksha keejiye. blip. Aap kataar mein hain. Krupiya prateeksha keejiye. blip. Aap kataar mein hain. Krupiya prateeksha keejiye. blip. Aap kataar mein hain. Krupiya prateeksha keejiye. blip. Aap kataar mein hain. Krupiya prateeksha keejiye. blip. Aap kataar mein hain. Krupiya prateeksha keejiye. blip. Aap kataar mein hain. Krupiya prateeksha keejiye.........." (You are in a que. Please wait.)

We went ahead and paid our immigration attorney more fees and some more fees to to US Govt. to get it straightened out.

So sometimes I wonder about how all these 'Illegal Immigrants' here in the US and in India, probably there from Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Israel.....and god knows where else live and survive.

Does India have a mechanism to track these people. I doubt. What is India going to do about this problem? I doubt the very question.

With all the resources and technology available here in the US I doubt if anyone has the serious inclination to solve the problem, and in India no one could care less.

[cyberhippie]

Quote

This guy was 19y.o.

Hmm not confined to Israel I'm afraid, where at least the danger is very real and on their own doorstep. My Nephew will be some way short of his 18th birthday when he ships out to Afghanistan in August. For someone from central Scotland, the ordeal of experiencing a very different culture from behind a uniform and in a atmosphere of violence, will be a lot harder on his mental health. This after only four short months in the army........................

Quote

And to think of the big fuss that is made on the boards about over staying 180 day visas.

I said on a number of occasions, that for the determined, there are any number of ways to stay in India with an official stamp. So not all long term stayers are "on the run" so to speak though some certainly are.

Quote

dzi,

I agree. If it was probably any other country that has 30,000 of these types of tourists "invading" certain areas, there would probably be much hue and cry by the locals

I doubt if there are anywhere near that number in anyone place at any given time crvlvr, Though I understand where you are coming from.

It's worth remebering that cannabis plays a large role in society anyway in India. Many of the places where smokers congregate would have a "dope scene" anyway. So it's not right to say that all people are offended by dope smokers in India. India only agreed kicking a screaming to sign the 1961 Narcotics act anyway. This in recognition of the long tradition of cannabis in India. The narcotics act was kneejerk polocy in the west anyway. After a very short period of time where there were a tiny amount of users.
Nepal fared worse they were threatended on withdrawal of aid if they didn't sign up. The law is the law of course but it's always good to know the background of these things.
Laughable when you see what Roche and Phizer sell as "legal drugs" what percentage of Viagra users do so for impotancy you reckon???

Crvlvr if you want to see the results of 30,000 dopers actually descending on one city, then take a look at Amsterdam where it powers the tourist indusrty. All very shanti, compare that with a British high street on Fri/Sat night with hundreds of drunken louts emptying onto the streets, looking for trouble....................

Luckily Tony Blair had the answer, keep the pubs open longer  

As to Israelis in the Army, well the contrived camaraderie suits some and not others. I think the biggest downside that Israelis face, is the fact that most have no choice. Apart from the super zealots, who strangely are known to be the biggest agitators in the region, yet they don't have to send their kids to the army????
A fact ruefully explained to me by an ex army Israeli. "four families of settlers having to be gaurded by 200 young men in uniform......................"

Quote

I wasn't that favorably impressed by either the dopers or the heavy handed "rescuers" - wouldn't care to spend 10 seconds in the company of either group, frankly.  The scenery was nice, though.

Does this mean you're not talking to me anymore    

[kullukid]

cyberhippie, on May 24 2008, 10:46 AM, said:

All very shanti, compare that with a British high street on Fri/Sat night with hundreds of drunken louts emptying onto the streets, looking for trouble....................

Hey watch it Hippie!


Does this mean you're not talking to me anymore    

I'll still talk to you CH...........when i'm not toooo stooooned!!  

I think the point not to be missed here, is that the Israeli's don't just leave the army come to India & start smoking vast quantities of dope, most of them smoke (Lebanese) in their own country, however the Charas from Manali/Parvati is rumoured to be much stronger. I think what causes the "Flipouts" is things like seeing their best friend been killed in the army............oh & taking the LSD in India is the final flipper for someone who's head's already messed up. KK

[dzibead]

cyberhippie, on May 24 2008, 01:46 AM, said:

Does this mean you're not talking to me anymore    

Heck, no.  Stoned or stone-cold sober, you could never be as vapid and boring as that bunch seemed!

[Ray kelleher]

Why any one would want to take LSD in India is way beyond me.... It's trippy enough as it is in my view....

[Shauli]

Hey..
Jumping into this disscution as I think it concerns me (and please dont mind my English, its good but not that good).

I'm a 25 years old Israeli, who has been to the army and about 2 years afrer discharge I went on a trip to India..
I havent seen this program yet, but the link to it (illegal emule one, so I wont post), has been sent around many Israelis backpackers I know.
If this film is what I think it it, I was in Kasol the time the filmed it..

Anyway, I read here a few things and I want to respond to some..

yes, most Israelis that backpack in India do drugs.. from "just" joints to bungs and "Chilums" to LSD and stuff like that..
for the record, I "only" smoked joints..
I loved my military service.. It was fun and as people here wrote about Israeli's they met yes- It made me a man and tought me a lot. I would never want to change the fact I did it.
I didnt have any life threatning situations, though I was in combat service, but I do know people from my school/unit who did die during thier service..
I was inlisted to the army 20(!!!) days after I graduated, so instead of partying and having a "normal" (not israeli noraml) 3 years from 18-21 life, I was in a military service that really effect a 18 year old kid.

So, as soon as I was discharged my dream was to go and travel in the far east.. I didnt even think about drugs..
So I worked for 2 years, saved money I flew to India.

Only when I got there are started traveling, only then I started to smoke.. Why?? call it group presure, or trying to be accepted into the Israeli backpacker culture, but there is more to it..
The Israeli mentality as I see it, is all about Togetherness.. As many of you that backpacked around India saw, Israelis travel in packs
I can't explain why, but it's something in out nature to stay together and stick around one for each other.
so, what bounds more and makes a better feeling of togetherness than a joint passing around friends?

I know that drugs are illegal in India, but it's there.. plenty of it.. And after 3 (or more) hard years in the army and maybe 1-2 more years working our ass off for the money for the trip we feel like we need to forget about everything and have fun..
But even then, in my opinon, there are red lines for everything.. joints are one thing, but I disagree about taking LSD and chemicals.
The only people who flip are people who took those, and from my 7 months traveling in India I did not see even 1 person who took it.. (ok.. maybe 1 after he took it, but only 1..)
So filp outs are a very low % of us..

And about those religious people.. There are 2 kinds of "Chabad House"s in India.. the formal one, and he none formal ones..
The formal one (like the one in the Harre Krishna GH in New Delhi) is all about helping the travels, they do it out of love to their fellow jews (free internet service, free firday and saturday hot meals, traveling tips, etc).
The unformal one (like the one is kasol) is all about (IMO) trying to get the backpackers back into religion. I was in the "Chabad House" in kasol once, and after the rabbi starting preaching about politics and stuff like that I left.. I think they try to catch the minds of the people who are close to flip out.. Seems a bit harsh but thats what I think..

Another place Israelis go to in India is the "Warm Home" in manali, who is run buy 2 great people named Haya and Manoach. They volunteer in India as a part of the Drug War association in Israel. They too help backpackers and flip outs..

I may be blabing here about off topic stuff, but just wanted to donate my 2 cents here, As this issue is really close to me.

I would gladly answer any question you have..

Shauli