SriGurubhyohnamahhariomtatsat
Dear CH,
You are right about one thing: neither the people who are defending Manu nor those who are attacking it have taken the trouble to read it or understand it, in the original wwith the help of translations if need be, but keeping the original as reference, in its entirety. Plus, comparatively with the other dharmashastras, and the contextual study, history etc.
You are correct also that things can be selectively taken to support one thing or the other. But please note what i was saying: here the thread is about caste, and i bring up what that particular text has to say about that particular topic. You on the other hand, bring up women's treatment, etc. very important no doubt, but not relevant to the immediate narrow focus. Yes we undestand, Women are the niggers of the world and so forth, but this thread is not the place for that didcussion.
Second, anything that militates against the liberal agenda, and note agenda, that is the dismissal of this or that item or text or aspect from Indian culture, is attacked. Please note carefully that I have not said that it is not OK to campaign for the removal of the attitudes or injustices that are are based on the fact identities are screwed on tight by birth. Intolerance by birth identities.
I am dead set against a certain class and certain group of people who have not proven their bona fides; in fact very much the opposite.
Then, these people, drag in the Sanatana Dharma as an easy whipping boy as part of their self-righteous campaign.
I am clearly stating that any movement touched by these people and their associates is by that very fact polluted and will be rejected, and will only serve to strengthen the hands of the extreme elements. You need to read the history of Derozio's movement, of Rev. Sonaton Some, later, of Michael Madhusudam Dutta, in nuance detail, AND UNDERSTAND, for heaven's sake, before putting your oars in. It will only drive moderates towards Modi-like figures.
The Sanatana Dharma has massive powers of self reform, beginning with The Buddha, Sri Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, Anirvan, HH Dalai Lama, et al.. It does NOT require YOU or Arundhati Roy, Saba Naqvi Bhaumik or Vinod Mehta. Change yourself, do even a little positive change, before trying to improve the world.
As expected, erroneous understanding fuels your thought, but you are more excited by the thought of a spat, by agression, the chance to give your ego a good run for the money, than any need for doing real good with your life. Would like to suggest your reading the life of Rev. Charles Freer Andrews, who accompanied Gandhi everywhere, but who was a spiritual giant overtopping the shameful antics of the pseudo- spiritual shows manifested by his idol. See what a person of pure heart, an absolute bodhisattva of the first and second stages is like. Any criticism from Rev. Andrews i would receive as a direct revelation from the Divine. I am open to any correction depending on the purity and intent of the source. The purity comes from sacrifice. Long effort beyond self. Not aspiration. Then talk stops.
As I repeatedly emphasize, first there is a wrong translation of the word caste, varna and jati being different things. This is worse confounded by the mistake of endogamous groups, translated as "caste" in newspapers: "Gujarat has 1206 castes" a sentence will read. No, Gujarat has 1206 endogamous groups. What their power relationships are with each other has to do with their political and agrarian history, and please let us leave the Sanatana Dharma out of this, thank you.
Correlation is not causation. Otherwise, by the same logic, we could say, Judaism is the cause of all the ills associated with the Jews: concentration of wealth and power, their education, etc. "their" alleged characteristics and flaws. I put "their" in quotation marks because although Jews come from many ethnic groups even in Europe, to say nothing of Sephardic and other branches, somehow, they are all "they". I have lived in the US long enough to know that i am not talking out my backside!
This conflation has been made again and again, and continues to lurk yet, a suspicion in many minds. Jewishness is a sickness of the soul. Similarly, brahminhood is a sickness of the soul. Examine yourselves honestly, and see how close these things are. This is the party line promoted by the liberal school. unless you follow it and promote it overtly or by spin, you are marked and vilified. That is the Free and liberal press, be it Indian or foreign. That in turn invites crazy reaction by the crazy fringe and moderates are loath to say no, so alienated are they.
Read Sanjay Subrahmanyam's several histories of the Portuguese in Asia. There also is Here clergy took it upon themselves to fight on behalf of the king, and engage in acts that defy imagination. Whole coasts, e.g. Bengal, were stripped of inhabitants. Then Bengal was treated to the first Bengali text by an European: The Compassion of Jesus. Among those watching and participating were Francis Xavier. Here is Bernard of Clairvaux: "the Christian glories in the death of the Infidel because thereby Christ Himself is glorified." This is the man lauded as supreme by Thomas Merton!! According to your theses, a religious culture is damned when its revered texts and personalities exhibit characteristic horrific by some objective standards. So by that scale of judgment, the Christian civilization, and by extension the colonial civilisation, of which the liberal or "age of enlightenment" civilisation is a smooth continuum is equally horrific. It stood quietly by, when miilions died in Vietnam, it makes no protest at the horrific killings in Iraq. Whereis the legitimacy in India then?
That legitimacy cannot be won by specious talk. Either one settles down in India and applies oneself to substantive effort that COSTS, trying to better economically the lives of people, or one uses the privileged birth of being a Western citizen to leverage that into some way to help India, or any economically disadvantaged person, anywhere in the world, even in a rich country. Please clearly understand, having poured cold water on your face and head, ALL, ALL, ALL, intolerance based on IDENTITY, be it birth etc. reduce to tolerable levels the moment poverty disappears. In Germany, the impoverishment of the majority lead to the attack on a rich minorit, as it did in Africa. In poor counties, my thesis is solid, because, as I emphasize repeatedly, what turmoil you see is a function of class and economic servitude that are given social and religious spins.
Read an appeal I made in another thread. So many things can be done, but no helpers are to be found. Find me one single helper, for 3 months, from all your clever liberal people so interested in helping the downtrodden. Three months of sincere effort, desk work and networking on computer, a savvy guy or gal. No, they will run to save their souls in Dharamshala, made piquant by unrestrained concupiscence with new-found palsy walsies, but talk about making a little sacrifice, Holy ....!
Leave the religious texts and religion out of this.
Focus on those who talk nonsense about these texts. DO you understand the difference? Like the stereotypical Bible-thumping Southern US preacher, foaming at the mouth, preaching garbage. Please leave the Bible, Jesus and Christianity out of the equation. Focus on the socio-pathology, and economics of the South, plus that of the Rust Belt, and of the US, expenditure in Iraq, the Fed Reserve, for all those and more are exceedingly germane to what is happening in that pulpit and in the congregation and the aftermath. Is that really, really, really, clear?
Here is a story:
Pandharpur is one of the heart-centers of spiritual life in Maharashtra. The fount is the temple of Krishna-Vishnu in His aspect as Vitthoba and activities and vigorous group pilgrimages centered around the place. Pandharpur also has been associated with some of the great Bhakta saints of the region, Jnanesvara being the most familiar. His transformation of the Bhagavadgita into a Marathi redaction is a masterpiece, using simple, everyday scenes of village life and language to convey brilliantly all the gravity and depth of the Sanskrit original. His many abhangs to this day remain part of every Maharashtrians personal treasury and spiritual sustenace.
The story of Pandharpur and Vittoba has much to teach us about the nature of "caste" in ancient India and orthodox Hinduism, the "brahmanism" of Orientalist. It is a vicious, artificial concept steeped in emotion exactly like Anti-Semitism, coined by Orientalists and seized upon by their modern Indian lapdogs with mindless fervour. Modern Indian lapdogs and marxist fellow travelers entirely unschooled in even a trace of their heritage, either moral or otherwise, and besides vocal self-righteousness, unembarrassed by any morality or personal responsibility.
Vitthoba is the Maratha for "one who stands upon a brick", a curious name for the presiding deity for so important a shrine. There is a famous story enshrined in Pándurañgamáhátmya, a part of the Bhavisyottarapurána. Note that the Purnanas are the guardians of orthodoxy and blamed for all manner of "ills", that appear to offend "liberal" sensibilities when seeing to appear in others, but not when practiced for real by themselves! And, whether or not the same paragons of perfections have taken the trouble to have at all examines said texts in a thoughtful, nuanced manner!
The Adi Sankaracharya, who lived around 700-800C.E. composed a beautiful hymn to the Vithoba deity mentioning the circumstances of the temples foundation, meaning that he was familiar with the above account, i.e. this Purana was by then enough ancient and accredited to be credible to someone like Sankara, again someone slandered for all manner of things by the scatophagus chorus!
Here is the story: Note well the details.
Once upon a time, there lived a young man, Pundarika, born to an upper caste. Having had all the good things of life courtesy of his parents, affluence, a wonderful young bride, a beautiful home, he soon found them and their ageing a nuisance. When coldness and then misbehavior did not succeed in driving them out of the house, he and his wife hit upon the age-old Indian solution of getting rid of unwanted older parents: abandon them in sacred pilgrimages. It happens now, it happened then.
Some neighbors were going to Kasi, Banaras, and Pundarika, convinced the old couple to get on board. With no real choice, they did, and started on the long, slow. difficult journey by bullock cart. Now Pundarika and Missy, having busied themselves with all these Kasi travel plans for the oldies, and themselves actually being bored stiff with their affluent life in the sticks of Mahashtra, thought that a trip to Kasi [one of the oldest cities of the world, renknowned then as now for all sorts of fun things, food, fabrics, music, arts etc.] for themselves might not be such a bad idea.
But Pundarika and his love would travel first class, no bullock carts for them. Horses were ordered, and to make it more romantic, the two set off on a second honeymoon, pretty much alone: no retainers, no real planning, thinking that the whole thing was a breeze, just like life had been so far for them. The horses were spirited, and at first, things were just huge fun. But as evening came on, they realized that Kasi was nowhere within sight [Ha!! ], both they and the horses were very tired [ another surprise], famished and parched [two more], it was getting dark and real scary [keep doing the maths], they had sort of strayed off the road and pretty much did not know what to do.
Finding themselves going around in loooong circles, luckily, off of a small bridle path, the couple espied a thatched cottage lit by a burning lamp. Going there, they found in it a poor young cobbler named Rohidas. Asked about directions for kasi, Rohidas replied that he was just a poor and illiterate person with no knowledge of the outside world, and hence of such things. He merely looked after his family and parents and lived there with his work, and they were welcome to spend the night at his home.
So these Twenty-somethings ended up doing just that. Pundarika could not sleep. Late at night some soft, unusual sounds jerked him out of his reverie and he went out to investigate if his horses were being stolen by the cobbler. On the banks of the small pond dug out near the house of Rohidas [originally to provide clay for building that hut], Pundarika saw three women or what he thought were gigantic demonesses of frightening appearance, adorned with jewelry that were clinking as they made their slow, painful way down the earthen banks into the water. Frozen with terror he could only watch as they submerged themselves and emerged as radiant, divine forms.
Faced with female beauty, divine or otherwise, some of Pundarika's male cockiness reasserted itself since the probability that he would become a crunchy snack appeared to diminish. Still respectful, he approached these beings and asked them about what he had seen.Three pairs of divine eyes impaled Pundarika with scornful, angry glares. One of them spoke to him in a voice that turned his insides to water:
Know this, you Pundarika, we are the embodiments of the rivers Ganga, Yamuna and Saraswati. Each day we absorb all the sins of uncountable beings, and so become as you saw us. Each night, therefore, we come to Rohidas' pool and purify ourselves in its water to regain our divinity and so be ready for another day of service. For the merit this purehearted man has acquired from his deeply loving care and service to his aged father and mother is beyond words. So saying, they disappeared.
Pundarika was shaken to the core. There must have been something within him that allowed him to solidly face up to what he himself had been doing, not just the physical deprivation, but also the mental and verbal slights that no doubt hurt his parents more cruelly than anything else. Come morning, he and his wife, made their prostrations, to this cobbler, a chamar, supposedly the lowest of the Hindu society, and hurried off to search for his parents, still quite a ways behind them.
From that day on both Pundarika and his wife became loving caretaker of the aged folk. One day, hearing of this major change of heart that had become the talk of the region, Krishna, then ruling in Dwaraka with his queen, Rukmini, decide to see for himself. He arrived at what Americans would describe as "a bad time", just when Pundarika was personally preoccupied with some personal physical care for one of his parents, and could not stop right that moment. In India, it is the custom when an honored guest arrives, to offer a seat, then water to wash the feet and so on. Now here is Pundarika caught in a very tricky situation. On the one hand, there is Krishna right there, saying, Hi! and here is Pundarika, perhaps bathing his dad, maybe doing something even more personal, so Krishna needs to wait just a few more minutes!
At least as as token of the rites of honor and hospitality, Pundarika picks up a brick lying near [in India, people bathing, or shaving, doing personal things, often sit on bricks, or 4-6 of them, to gain height, while someone else can wash their back, shave them, etc. so bricks are easily at hand during such delicate junctures!!] and asks Krishna, Please stand on this, till I am done in a moment, and then I shall be with you. Krishna of course, has been testing P, and smilingly agrees. So from that point on, there is Vishnu-on-a-brick, Vitthoba, who makes his home in Pandharpur, the city of Pundarika.
Hear the Hymn by Sankara, set to modern musical tastes unfortunately, but the only one I could find:
http://www.musicindi...HBq9.As1NMvHdW/
Ask yourselves some questions, among them:
Why would a Purana, allegedly upholder of "casteism", allegedly all made-up stories, go to such lengths to include as one of the major figures a cobble, among the "lowest" castes? Not just for pure dramatic effect, because the cobbler here appears not just as a moral teacher of all, including brahmans, but also as THE PURIFIER of the ULTIMATE purifier of humans on earth, the Mother Ganga. She easily supersedes any and all brahman, and most divinities in purity and sanctity [two separate things], yet she is purified by the very merit of one who is situationally least "pure" but functionally most.
And why would Shankara, deliberately reinforce this particular Purana, give it the stamp of his authority, by including this element in his hymn to the Panduranga Deity? Deities of a particular place gain or lose popularity depending on the momentum applied by one or more charismatic saints: Ramanuja to Tirupati, Sankara and Jnanesvara to Pandharpur, the Gaudiyas to Vraja, etc.
Do people realize that Ramanuja's guru line, his "grandfather" guru and up, were all low caste, not just lower caste? In worship, we always have to invoke 4 "generations" of gurus,
guru [1]
parama guru: guru's guru [2]
parapara guru: guru of 2 [3]
paramesthibhyah guru: guru of 3 [4]
So, in Ramanuja's case, [3] & [4] were very low caste. Even today, there remains a schism in the Visistadvaita sampradaya, regarding this matter. If the Ayyangars insist on gurudroha, and loudly shout down everyone, it cannot prevent the actuality and heavy karma from taking place. It merely means denial and being hidden from the world.
The Bhagavad Gita is canonical for Ayyangars. It categorically says:
CAturvarnam mayA srstam guna karma vibhAgasa
Note well: guna & karma are the criterion for vibhAga, NOT birth
See Manu: janmanA jAyate sudrah
Also Note well: a person is required to perform multiple roles in the 4 stages of his life:
s/he may have to perform as a ksatriya, taking responsiblity, like Arjuna, giving his fierce courage, his confident strength to sustain his family, his community from all the challenges that life will& must throw at us: let us say this is a period when men and women are in the parental generation, when they have gotten some mental maturity, yet are in the fullness of their strength, they are fit to rule, to husband the resources of the community, moral, mental, physical, for the next generation
then the younger generation must learn to obey gracefully, use their strength to not usurp decision making roles, but to learn, to contribute gracefully and happily for the common good. Not subservience but intelligent alert, apprenticeship. like a knight's squire. They have not gained the mental maturity yet, not the experience, nor the calmness to take major decisions for the community. Watch and learn. You will soon be to take on the burdens soon enough, and you won't thank those who will pass them on.
Then the oldest have other roles. So, roles are not static.These are some of the worldviews of the indian orthodox, as i have been taught byu exceedingly orthodox people, and who have been actually seen as saints and moral leaders by a very great many of several generations. Therefore such views are not idiosyncratic, one-off interpretations. Nor are they coming from apologists reacting to Western threats. Not the people I know!!!! They could not care less. Could not care less even about the Sankaracharya of the Kanchi Peetha wanting a meeting and similar Indian pooh-bahs, let alone prideful elements of the West and its hangers on! Have some interesting stories in that respect but are too personal.
Edited by gautam, 22 January 2008 - 10:27 PM.
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Hyderabadi, on Dec 1 2007, 12:29 PM, said:
