[cyberhippie]

I've been reading a bit about caste in India lately, and there have's been a few eye openers along the way. Quite a few on the Bramhin dictates on the idea of people's station in life being immovable, it would seem that caste is not a immovable social status, rather people through the generations have moved higher up the caste chain and higher castes have fallen though the generations.

An interesting point I read was about the Kahar caste of Bihar, this caste is not even considered twice born yet it's claims if taken seriously would trump the Brahmin caste, as they claim to be descended from a lunar dynasty and the moon is the eye of the Purusa, from where the caste are supposdly derived (Brahmans and Kshatriyas, from head and shoulders, Shudras from the feet etc) interesting story but I can't find much to back this up as the Kahars remain a backward caste in Bihar. If these thing are true, it pretty much debunks the Brahmin theories on caste and it's inescapable genetic code

Any thoughts??

[Hyderabadi]

Caste is something that is quite confusing / complicated these days....

For example, a very dominant (politically and financially) caste in Andhra Pradesh is a 'backward class' (or maybe scheduled caste) in Karnataka, with school, college & job reservations / privileges whatever you call them.

[crvlvr]

CH,

It would be great inf you could provide some links to the sources of your info.

AFAIK,  there is nothing to the support a rigid caste system in the hindu scriptures. the word caste (or a sanskrit word for it)  as we understand it today, itself does not exist.

The word "varna" is used to describe an individual's  profession/line of work. There is nothing that dictates that a person is born into a certain caste/varna. Instead there are multitudes of references to the equality of man.

Some links:
http://www.hindunet........5&type=post
http://hitxp.wordpre...m-is-not-vedic/

Edited by crvlvr, 16 November 2007 - 02:02 AM.

[gautam]

CH,

As people have remarked, what aspect of "caste" do you wish to understand?

1.Its scriptural or exegetical aspects? Some parts of your questions seem to include this element but want also to use this to satisfy your intrests in other aspects, such as:

2. social status vs dominance, 2 distinct matters; and perceptions of the former and reality of the latter

3. How "caste" evolved in Indian society [and it is a subcontinent, call it Western Europe] in response to different forces of history, different ideas of social and moral contract, just as in Europe, a multiplicity of guild, churches professing poverty with ferocious policies towards bonded serfs [generational] etc. evolved in a great, complex mosaic, that cannot be subsumed under a simplistic catch-all, without a nuanced study of regional history and sociology. Is the history of Scotland similar to that of Ireland? Here are 2 places so close in geography, race and even culture/language, yet what differences in societal relations/servitute etc. may be discerned in their respective histories.  Or consider the Italian city states or the Rhine principalities. Even the differences between Holland and Belgium, leading to their historical partition between a catholic and protestant dutch speaking entity. That separation is "caste" acting out in its European form, religion and language, in later times, endogamous guilds and religion earlier. As you may have guessed, India is no less complex.

4. From where you receive your information: the issue of orientalism and also modern scholarship. I shall stop here and say that every type of analysis has its own strengths and weaknesses.

one of the more valuable insights of caste is the sociological observation of the system as that of more than 3000 endogamous guilds.

You need to understand something about Indian economic history; go to Cambridge Economic History of India, for a first couse, followed by "Straws In The Wind" by Kenneth Arrow for the 17th century.

Let us suppose a scenario much like what is happening in the US right now, or consider what would happen if in Europe the economic system underwent a sudden collapse. Each profession would struggle to preserve its standards of living as best as it could in a precipitously declining economy, as happened when USSR collapsed.  As in the Dark and Middle Ages, endogamous guilds, marrying within each other and preserving trade secrets like medicine, diamond cutting, special skills would try to exist and sell their skills against the hooligans, who would be the rulers or kingly caste. See how the traders , for example the jewish diamond merchants and their Indian mercantile counterparts have survived with powerful family bonds to this day.

Many such boom periods followed by busts lasting for centuries happened in India, one of the first recorded during the Buddha's time, another around 600-642, another towards the end of the Mughal period. During each of these stagnang periods, society went into a defensive, sterile, regressive mode, lacking the confidence of the former creative periods. Then, petty idiocies became more pronounced, especially religion being used to justify the degenration of the spirit. The 19th century was such a time of gloom and despair, with negative economic growth rates, and corresponding pseudo-conservatism in religion, i.e. religiosity taking place of spirituality. Now we have a resurgent India, and self-confidence is automatically withering those obscurantist  elements. Similarly, during the Buddha's time.

Caste can also be used to create slaves. Churches in Europe did it on a large scale. These were the equivalent of the brahmins. Read St.Bernard, in "God Wills It" unhesitatingly plunging Europe in the Crusades to benefit the Church and leading to massive destruction of its peasantry.

Then the mercantile interests, the church and the rulers, turned their eyes abroad, and from 1527, the Papal Bull that established that Africans could be enslaved, to 1833 when England abolished slavery, and 1864 when USA did, 12 million Africans were landed alive in the New World. It is estimated conservatively 2 died for every 1 landed live. This from a continent that never had more than 80 million as its historical population, continuously. These descendants of Africans find themselves members of a ferocious caste system. Fully one-third of African males in the US between the ages of 15-65 are incarcerated. Statistically, this makes no sense. That many of a population cannot be criminal!!!!!

Thereafter, England, recorded sarcastically by her own parliamentarians, could not afford the cost of not having slaves to work sugar interests, and introduced indentured labor that lasted until 1927, and was extraordinarily lethal. Ask me for details.

Go to Denmark, or to England, and you will see the workings of a pervasive and ferocious caste system based on race and color. When you can recognize and understand all the reasons why discrimination exists in any HUMAN society, perhaps CASTE in India will cease to have its erroneous and meaningless hold on you.

It is employed, in the sense you wanted to know, whenever, people wish to deprive another of some basic right to a happy existence.

Strangely, it has become very useful and popular to demonize Brahmans, although economically and politically they are extremely weak in most areas, except in a few places in the South [or were in the South, not any more].

Just reading and cherry picking leads to little comprehension of the issues. Not that you should not begin somewhere, but what is it that you are asking? Why Kahars do not overturn the scales of their social standing because of their mythic past?

Answer me this: why did valiant warriors like the Irish come to stand at the bottom of the heap in English society, say during 1880s- 1920s, derided by the lowliest English shopkeeper ? Why did the Scots, another valiant race, have to take second place in that society, (not perhaps openly, but thinly veiled in terms of political appointments in the power structure, certainly yes)? No amount of referral to their glorious history nor to their present valiant natures nor indispensable service to the English Empire carries/carried any weight in that dispensation. Such is life.

In India, we had a saying: The Irish fought for the Scottish to rule for the English [and the Welsh were the doctors].

One of the least likable groups in Bihar, the Bhumihars, try to establish their claims to brahmanhood through convoluted logic and whatnot. That again is something difficult to explain to someone not deeply versed in these matters. So there is a continuous up and down movement of "castes" within society.

There is room for promotion. Study the case of the Rajputs. These were a mix of foreign tribes, Hunas, from Central Asia, also others, who were sick of fighting with each others , and iranians from the remnants of persian satrapies along the Gujarat borders. All these enemies decided to make peace and performed a great yajna and were admitted to the ksatriya caste of "hindus". Since then, they have been the flag-bearers.

Later Sikhs, e.g. 1920s, and even now present an interesting case.  Separate gurdwaras, separate politics for Mazhabi Sikhs, i.e those from lower castes, separate for jat Sikhs, separate for Rajput Sikhs. Same story for kerala christians; top= Syrians, then Catholics, at bottom, Church Mission Society.

I have had intimate contacts with Syrian Christians, with their hair down; never have I heard in an orthodox hindu household, the continuous nad instant labelling of Keralaites in their get-together conversations, as CMS, mar Thoma, etc. etc. They would come home from school and then have to take a bath from the well in the courtyard before being allowed inside the house, being polluted by the touch of a dirty world.

And so we come to another complex theme, that I shall not touch here, purity and pollution, that is another element in caste.

Edited by gautam, 16 November 2007 - 03:17 PM.

[cyberhippie]

I'm looking at the contentions made by mainly Brahmin scholars that caste is genetic and inescapable, this is what India lives with today, the ideas of varna I understand but they have been undermined by the social structuring that is sought by these ideas of a rigid cast system.
This is reinforced by misplaced conceptions of Karma and Dharma

My whole point ably illusturated by Guatam that this is a farce, a misinterpretation, of the original intention though it's by no means sure that this golden age of equality ever really exisited, though it is often vaunted in conversation and the varied and amibigious revelations do nothing to completely assauge this idea of dominating caste/varna, like other supposed Holy scriptures it's easy to find qualification for anything within the pages.

Gautam sorry to see you going down the well worn path of two wrongs make a right, the truth is much of what you talk about is mainly consigned to history, in Western Europe to my knowledge, and we fought tooth and nail to make it that way, we made it top of the agenda to bring better equality to women and working class. If we're making comparisons, where in western Europe do we have to lay aside jobs for lowly working class or places in our Universities, proof if any was needed that we cannot compare the equalities of modern Western Europe with those of India no matter how you try to bend it, they´re just not comparable, Britain And America are slightly behind in this and America it seems to me doesn't really score much higher than India, living as they do under the dumb auspices of we provide the opportunities the failure or success is down to the individual, read if your poverty stricken it's you own fault. Quite similar to  the Indian take on things.

I also notice you slipped in that it might be oreintalism that clouded the views, it wasn't Dipankar Gupta is Indian through and through.

It seems again I'm faced with being told that this is a modern malaise, yet people like Kabir were fighting via the sufi movement the inherent ineqaulity in caste, 800 years ago, before orientalists shaped the various Hinduisms into something their Christain ideals could formulate and relate to.
Interesting as I've  read often that the modern day problems of caste were in part at least influenced by the Christain thinking British who divided society along the lines of caste and from here we created the modern day problems of caste.

Quote

Now we have a resurgent India, and self-confidence is automatically withering those obscurantist elements. Similarly, during the Buddha's time

Sorry but that just isnt true Gautam landless untouchables have only grown over the last 6 decades and will be the last to feel the winds of change if ever. Caste deaths are as big a problem as ever in the villages of India, still we see conversions. These are the kinds od Macawberish soundbites that must enrage the lower castes of India, just wait is all they've been offered for centuries, Whilst a false dialogue goes on in the corridors of power, about their relative happiness and equal place in society by people with little knowledge of the grass root realities.

I find it constantly disappointing that India tries to blame all it's social ills on being invaded, and therefor retarded in introducing modern day policies that at least ackowledge that inequalities exist.

We seem to have a quite Shitzophrenic India right now with a middle class having  all that consumerism brings (no problem with that, you work hard you deserve the goodies) and the thrust of the new economy reflects that, with the pace of change phenominal, bigger credit rating, newer imported cars, electronic goods. When we talk about the pace of change in India this is pace of change is often held up as the modern improved India and it's undenaiable, change is happening for the few and government is proactive in making sure the pace of change continues. Now compare that to the hollow soundbites offered to the landless poor, the non attention to basic infrastucture, caste deaths, caste inequality.

So we have on the one hand a country that can introduce staggering growth and advantages in a very short period of time, yet when it come to real social adjustment and better equality, well there was the Mughals, then the British........ all in all it could take generations to address the problems of poverty via caste, ask about growth rates for the next five years and we can get instant answers............. Anyway it´s all false, caste WASN`T meant to work that way, yet it does. For me that tells a story!

[cyberhippie]

crvlvr thanks for the links some interesting stuff contesting the subliminal Purusa-sukta, which has been at the forefront of the politicizing of caste.

Let be be straight in this I´m fully aware that this has been hijacked for social structuring over the years, like much of what is pure from holy books it get´s diluted, reformed, justified and used as justification.

That modern day religions philosophies are largely corrupted in undeniable right across the board, the same would appear to be the case with caste, just like women´s place in Islam etc etc.

However rather than look at what it should have denoted in society, I´m looking at what is has become amd I think in all fairness it has at least been instrumental in creating inequality, and a hiarchy.
Hiarchy is inherent in all socities, we don´t seem to be able to live without it, however I feel in the modern time there are few countries where this hiarchy is so prevelant and symbiotic with society as in India, the religious gloss put on this over centuries has certainly not helped, it has rather cemented misguided ideas in the minds of some.

I´ve read that many Brahmin scholars sought to cement idea of caste using scriptures like the Purusa-sukta through the years, I´m not demonising Brahmins for this, self preservation is again a human trait. I am inclined to believe this though. Simply because they were largely the educated class.

Like Gautam and yourself I´m just looking for a truth, perhaps I´m looking from the other side of the garden but certainly some of these mistruths need to be looked at, for a modern India to progress.

I did read a rather nice explantion of the Purusa-sukta, in that this was simply a represenatation of the way society was already structured. The varna was instituted along the lines of how society was already operating, Seemed logical to me.

In all this we probably agree but I think it´s faniciful to say pure intentions have translated into modern reality, something has been going wrong for a very long time. look at Kabir, Bhaktism, Ghandi, Ambedkar, Roy and the modern day India seems unable to rid herself of this backward thinking.

Seems to me we should be proactive in presenting some of the truths of caste to India as a whole, crvlvr and Gautam are already enlightened in this, but I think sometime people transpose their belief´s on to a country, not everyone sees the truth of the evolution of caste, shouldn´t we be helping them at least see the historical manipulation that has gone on. Surely this must be part of the march to modernity, it may be the only way to relieve India of this burden! Education.
Certainly legislation hasn't been wholly successful.

I look forward to views on my humble ideas, that's all they are but I like to think they're at least educated, and I do listen when members such as Guatam, crvlvr and Hydrabadi speak,( how so think I got this far in my studies ) I reckon it may take a another two lifetime's but I'll have an understanding one day, of this varied and wonderful country.

[cyberhippie]

Gautam

After several rereads of your post I'm bound to say a humble sorry, on first (2nd 3rd) take I saw your post as justification for the problems I raised, I now see after many attempts, it is a well founded excercise in anthropology.

Thus much of what I said in response is rendered redundant.

Ach the voice of ego, it levels us all.

Anyway I'll leave the response as testemant to my stupid assumptions and hope in seperating the wheat from the chaff there are still a couple of points worth debating!

[crvlvr]

CH

What follows is mostly my opinion. I want to make 3 points and then tie it together with some analysis.  


1. History of mankind in the civilized world seems to be the same across countries and across time.  In brief, the few in power will find a way to benefit themselves at eh expense of others. In this  exercise, religion can be a powerful tool. For example: even the Bible, as we know it today, is a result of a political exercise.

2. Every religion appears to he have gone through a dark age. An age when the religious leaders  hijack the religion for their own benefit at the expense of the masses.  Judaism during the life  of Christ. Christianity during the dark ages. And some would argue Islam is going through it  today. Similarly, Hinduism would have gone through such a period. I don't know when -- but I  suspect it could have been during the time Buddha/Mahavira (600BC) and spawned Buddhism and Jainism.

3. The third point is unique to India in that the religious scriptures were not written, but memorized. Thus they were handed down for generations by word of mouth. Initially this practice may have been started to ensure "quality control" In that this method ensures that one had to be reasonable intelligent to be a Brahmin and no riffraff could read the scriptures and draw their own conclusions. But, later on this allowed the Brahmins to control access to it. This allowed them to teach it to only their children to and elevate their own material status in society.

IMHO, the rigid caste system was probably created during the Hinduism’s dark age. However, it has lasted much longer than its natural life -- when compared to atrocities committed during dark ages of other religions -- mainly due to the minority monarchies that have ruled in since the 1200s.  
Every one of them found the caste system a powerful l tool to keep the Indian population divided and hence easier to control. Keep in mind, India, historically has had 25% of the world population so it was always a fairly large population to control by force.

The British fall into the same category. I don't believe they condoned the caste system for religious reasons; rather it helped them achieve their economic objectives. They realized that the Brahmins were key to disseminating religious information and encouraged them to focus on caste issues. In return, a lot of Brahmins got plum jobs with the British administration. As a result, an Anti Brahminism movement has been going on in India for a long time

That brings us to the question: What is a typical Indian's understanding of his caste today? The simple answer is what his/her parents tell them.  So for generations, the individual's caste has been passed on by word of mouth. In many instances, people have changed their castes conveniently. There is no way to offcially determine one's caste.

How deeply rooted is this one's mind? Unfortunalet in backward areas they might be reminded of it every day. In cities, one does not have to confront it until unless he/she is perfoming some religious finction. Somewhere during the religious ceremony the prioest is bound to ask for the person's gotra/gotram. This  questions attempts to pin down the individidual's lineage for the beginning of time.  You may find this link interesting in that the whole concept of gothram again was expanded  by the Brahmins -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra

Edited by crvlvr, 17 November 2007 - 02:00 AM.

[cyberhippie]

crvlvr what a great post!
If If I have any understanding of the Indian way of life, it's been gained from the "shoulders of giants" such yourself and other wonderful "inspirants"

[jyotirmoy]

In the begining it was "Varna" The profession of a particular person. It became caste for the simple reason that in those days offsprings invariably took up the profession of their parents. So we had the village carpenter who supplied the village furnitures for generations.
Later on with money, greed, corruption & politics the original concept was completely changed.
How deep rooted & how politicised it is can be gauged from the endless conflicts that we have. An example is the Meena Gujjars confrontation in Rajasthan.

[Hyderabadi]

Just my personal experiences with caste....

My very early years, till I was six, were in my village - caste was all around. It didn't bother me I guess at that time, other than I could play only with so-and-so kid and not with so-and-so.

When sending me to a boarding school in Hyderabad, 37 years ago, my father dropped the attachment that usually comes at the end of the names of people from my caste / community. I don't use it even now, legally. For the next 10 -11 years I completely forgot about caste. Names were just names, I was not aware, nor was it important to me that the guy sitting next to me was supposed to be of x or y religion or caste.

In junior college, I was re-introduced to caste and religion. I stayed in a hostel run by my community / caste and those days strongly associated with certain 'Hindu' Society (no BJP then). Not that anyone went to the temple twice a day (or even once a day) or anything. Those were fun days.

While trying to get into junior and later degree college, caste came in again. I realized that I'm not special because I belong to a certain caste. Nothing was reserved for me.

To cut a long story short, I settled down in the travel industry, where no one had any reservations, they only made them.

Got married, the Gotra + Caste + Religion all played a role.

Kids, no attachment at the end of their names again.

Later, got the appropriate visa, made reservations, got on a plane and here we are in the US. Long story cut short again.


So, what does caste mean to me? Apparently, It's played a pretty important role in my life, just like perhaps it played a role in most, if not all, Indians' lives for what, centuries? One way or the other.


Hopefully, someday in the future, I'll go back and retire in my India. Have a couple of drinks every day with friends from school, college, hostel, and travel agency days. Chatting about spiritual matters.   

Edited by Hyderabadi, 17 November 2007 - 05:11 PM.

[cyberhippie]

Great post Hyderabadi, what I love about The India Tree, is the truthfulness of the replies from our Indian friends over these sticky issues, Other places it generally ends in denial and pointing fingers. Cheers guys I continue to "get educated".

So it would seem caste plays some small part in most Indian's life

[Hyderabadi]

cyberhippie, on Nov 17 2007, 06:54 AM, said:

Other places it generally ends in denial and pointing fingers. ".

CH, have you considered that it could perhaps be truthiness from a few friends in the 'other places' ?

But that could just be my gut feeling.

Edited by Hyderabadi, 18 November 2007 - 03:31 AM.

[Shiver me Timbers]

This is a great thread, one of the reasons I come to these places...caste, like much of Hinduism, was something that sailed right over my head while in India...

Edited by Conor M, 18 November 2007 - 08:15 AM.

[batistuta]

A very good thread. Great posts, Crvlvr and Gautam. Very Informative.

[cyberhippie]

AAaahh "truthiness" is it, I think your gut feeling may be right! Some mistake posting longevity for wisdom  

[iwanttogoback]

long in the tooth, short in the truth?

[noflylist]

My personal take on caste: I have tried, always in vain, to get caste equation out of my life. Elders cling to it and youngsters seems not to care much about it, so I would give 50 years for caste to mostly disappear.

It makes me angry that it is a crime to be born into wrong caste and powerty.

Addition: An interesting slogan I saw on my way to Mumbai airport on a building wall (visual pollution - another issue worthy of a thread), I have forgotten the original interesting Hindi words but it meant "Brahmins are foreigners, only nonBrahmins are Indian"

Edited by !Noflylist, 18 November 2007 - 08:28 PM.

[cyberhippie]

In what way has caste touched your life NFL, does the mud stick even when abroad??

I've noticed the conversation has kind of veered to Brahmin versus the under castes, I'd like to point out though I didn't make it clear above much of inter caste rivarly and violence is not always to do with Brahmins and othere castes it often just village castes of a similar standing, playing out some interpersonal/caste play.

Brahmins versus the rest is sometimes played out too, but it's only one of many issues pertaining to caste and it's role in society.

[noflylist]

Caste isuues dominate lot of social and religious occassions, India or abroad.

Even within Brahmin subcastes, a family may contend they are higher than the next subcaste or direct descendents of God! It is an unbelievably sensitive issue in some conservative families. There are organisations dedicated even in US for specific castes. Just last year, I heard a preacher saying (in Houston) that lower castes are not welcome in the temple. Imagine, what it means to be a member of one of the unpriviledged castes.

It gives me great pleasure when intermarriages occur, since it breaks down caste.