[john.sw]

With the State Government getting tough on foreign tourists extending their stay over 180 days, those foreigners eager to have a permanent dream home in Goa could end up in a room with little or no view – a lockup.

According to rules, foreigners who wish to buy property in India must fulfill the 182-day stay in the country in one financial year on tourist visa.

But many foreigners who visit India possess six-month tourist visa and cannot complete their mandatory 182-day stay. As a result, they are forced to leave the country to renew their visas, before returning to Goa.

After visiting Goa regularly since 1991, a British couple retired from service in UK in 2004 and came to Goa to spend the rest of their lives. Their dreams have now been shattered.

“The Foreign Registration Office informed us that foreigners are not allowed to retire here. We must return to our country and retire. We have been allowed to stay here for five years, buy a house and make a home. We do not know why the government is doing this to us,” complained a foreigner.

A few months ago, another British couple’s dreams of spending their retirement years in Goa backfired, after being forced out of the country.

John and Margaret Hall, who lived in Goa since 2003, were told they would have to leave the country, if they wanted to apply for a new six-month visa.

Worse still, the news came a short time after John had suffered a stroke and was not fit to travel.

Though both these couples had two-year extendable multiple entry visas, they were asked to leave the country.

“The rules and regulations are clear. They are not given a tourist visa for the sake of living a retired life here. A tourist visa is given for the purpose of coming here and seeing the country for a limited time period,” justifies Chief Secretary J P Singh.
“The government of India is clear that this (tourist visa) is not meant for continuing and for the purpose of spending retired life here. So we are not giving any extension in visas,” he added.

Singh admitted that he had received some appeals from foreign nationals in regard to this issue.

In a bid to circumvent the system, some foreign tourists have opted to proceed to Sri Lanka, the nearest tourist destination outside India, and stay there for about a week before returning to Goa.

However, this does not come cheap and foreigners end up shelling out around $900 for a one-week stay and travel. Most of the foreigners claimed that the same amount could have been spent in the State.

“Worst are the officials attached to the Indian Embassy in Colombo. They simply refuse to co-operate with us”, complained a tourist.

Herald - Goa

[webswami]

john.sw, on Oct 13 2007, 12:24 PM, said:

With the State Government getting tough on foreign tourists extending their stay over 180 days, those foreigners eager to have a permanent dream home in Goa could end up in a room with little or no view – a lockup.
Herald - Goa

( VISA FEE AND OTHER DETAILS
Tourist visa : Fee £30.00, short duration visa for the purpose of holiday/ visiting relatives.
Business visa* : Fee £30.00, valid up to 6 months, £50.00 for 1 year and £90.00 for 2 years. A letter explaining the nature of business and duration
from UK Company and a letter of invitation from an Indian Company should be submitted.
Conference visa : Fee £30.00 valid for 3 months, Single Entry. A letter of invitation from the conference organiser should be submitted.
Transit visa : Fee £8.00 (Single/Double Entry), valid for halts of up to 72 hours within 15 days from date of issue. This visa is issued only for
changing of flights en route to another country. Evidence of onward travel outside India is required.
Entry visa* : Fee £90.00, valid for 5 years issued to people of Indian origin only.
Long term visa* : Fee £90.00, valid for 5 years. This settlement visa is issued only to people of Indian origin.
Student visa* : Fee £30.00, valid up to 6 months, £50.00, valid for up to 1 year and £55.00, valid for more than 1 year.
Letter of admission from recognised educational institution with duration of the course is required.
Journalist visa : Fee £30.00, valid for 3 months, Single Entry. Letter from employer should be submitted where applicable.
Employment visa* : Fee £50.00, Valid for 1 year. An employment contract signed by both the parties should be submitted.
Transfer of visa : Fee £4.00, For transfer of 5-year visa issued by this mission or other missions in U. K, from an expired passport to a new passport.
Both expired and new passports have to be submitted in original along with a separate application form.


I think all the Indian visa offices round the world need to give a simple leaflet whilst providing visas, clearly stating under no circumstances tourist visas enables anyone to purchase property in India (not just Goa), or expand above statements.
I guess this would be too bureaucratic

[iwanttogoback]

Quote

I think all the Indian visa offices round the world need to give a simple leaflet whilst providing visas, clearly stating under no circumstances tourist visas enables anyone to purchase property in India (not just Goa), or expand above statements.
I guess this would be too bureaucratic

or perhaps people thinking of buying property overseas should engage a lawyer. i certainly have every time i've sold my house and bought a new one and that's in my home town where i am a citizen.

[webswami]

iwanttogoback, on Oct 13 2007, 01:50 PM, said:

or perhaps people thinking of buying property overseas should engage a lawyer. I certainly have every time i've sold my house and bought a new one and that's in my home town where I am a citizen.

some reasons for using a UK lawyer (specialising in Indian law)

1. Save you money in the long run.
2. Will be able to explain the process to you in plain English. The system abroad bears no relevance to our English conveyancing system.  You would not do your own conveyancing in England where you understand the language and possibly the system of law, so why do it where you know neither
3. They are local and, there are no time difference, due to different time zones
4.             You will receive greater protection by using them than if you use a foreign lawyer if something goes wrong.  English lawyers must carry negligence insurance to cover errors made.
5. Purchasers require more than general advice of the Country they are buying in, such as tax advice in two countries. You will not get that abroad very easily.
6. If you use us as English Lawyers, registered for VAT in the UK, then because they are advising you on the purchase of property abroad, no VAT will be payable on their bill for the conveyancing services they supply you

[iwanttogoback]

good advice webswami. since i started using lawyers for conveyancing rather than settlement agents i wouldn't go back, they are much more thorough.

property purchasing is not something to be taken lightly at any time, especially if you are wanting to purchase overseas.

[HowieUK]

When I renewed my visa in Sri Lanka last year, there was a woman there who had returned to Sri Lanka for her second renewable visa.  She was eventually allowed it after an interview with an official.  The official did tell her she wouldn't be allowed another renewal from Sri Lanka and must return to her own country for the second renewal and then could renew again in a different country.

It seems to me India only wants two weeks tourist with mega money to spend now and the six months tourists are being given a much harder time


"In a bid to circumvent the system, some foreign tourists have opted to proceed to Sri Lanka, the nearest tourist destination outside India, and stay there for about a week before returning to Goa.

However, this does not come cheap and foreigners end up shelling out around $900 for a one-week stay and travel. Most of the foreigners claimed that the same amount could have been spent in the State.

“Worst are the officials attached to the Indian Embassy in Colombo. They simply refuse to co-operate with us”, complained a tourist.

[url="http://oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=2343&cid=10"]Herald - Goa[/url]
[/quote]

[dzibead]

HowieUK, on Oct 13 2007, 11:32 PM, said:

It seems to me India only wants two weeks tourist with mega money to spend now and the six months tourists are being given a much harder time.

No, I don't think that's necessarily the case.  I don't think they have any problem with visitors who want to stay for several months, and they certainly don't make any inquiries about what your budget is going to be when you're there.  But it's the repeat six-month tourists, who briefly leave India and apply for back-to-back visas over and over again, that have become a problem in the Indian government's view.  There are people who have been using quick "visa runs" to Kathmandu and Colombo to, in effect,  "immigrate" to India.  You couldn't get away with this in either the U.S. or the UK, so why should India allow it?  The  website for the Indian Embassy in Kathmadu now says explicitly that "Repeated applications for tourist visas will not be   entertained." (Emphasis in the original.)

[cyberhippie]

No point in comparing it to other countries Dzi as it stands the multi visa scenario has been historically employed as perfectly legal way of staying in India, no one is breaking any laws in doing so. The info on the Kathmandu website has been there for years yet people continued to get visas and unless India adopts  clearer visa rules and sticks to them this will continue to happen as India lovers find places they like and try to spend time there.

I agree totally with you that there's no reason we should expect anything different from India as we would from our own countries but playing the game within a set of badly defined rules is perfectly legitimate IMHO.

Now having said all that, would I buy a house and then try to do this.............................. NO!

Whilst their at it maybe they want to jail those officials in Goa who wrongly let foreigners purchase bits of paper saying they owned houses. I've seen some talk of the responsibilty being with the buyer in checking their eligibility to buy, true but in Goa some are certainly proactive in misleading for financial gain, It would seem they are going to walk away unscathed. Which is plain wrong. I've seen this played out all over India, shady deals made by corrupt officials which backfires in the long run, said officials always walk away smiling. Little guy loses everything!
Get rid of this grey area that seems to engulf so much of Indian life. Take away the powers of bureaucrats  over peoples life and MAKE them work under firm guidelines, with instant penalties for overstepping their powers and corruption!

[dzibead]

cyberhippie, on Oct 14 2007, 01:09 AM, said:

No point in comparing it to other countries Dzi as it stands the multi visa scenario has been historically employed as perfectly legal way of staying in India, no one is breaking any laws in doing so. The info on the Kathmandu website has been there for years yet people continued to get visas and unless India adopts  clearer visa rules and sticks to them this will continue to happen as India lovers find places they like and try to spend time there.  I agree totally with you that there's no reason we should expect  anything different from India as we would from our own countries but  playing the game within a set of badly defined rules is perfectly  legitimate IMHO.

Well, India seems to be tightening up on the back-to-back visa applications recently - there's certainly been more than one account of tightening up in Sri Lanka.  And I'm not suggesting that it's illegal to apply for back to back visas, but all visas (from whatever country) are completely discretionary, so if India decides it wants to scrutinize the applications more closely and restrict the issuance of back-to-back visas, it can do so.  No one who pops over to Kathmandu assuming it'll be a quick "visa run" has a right to be issued another visa, and I think it's becoming increasingly risky for people to to act as if they have actually settled in India (e.g., by leaving possessions behind or entering into long-term leases, or worse, "buying" property) and assume that they'll automatically be issued another visa.  It's not really a question of "playing the game within a set of badly defined rules"; as I said, the rules make the issuance of a visa  a matter of discretion, so anyone who "plays the game" assuming that he will get a visa just because he applies (whether for the first time or the twentieth time) has no basis for

And actually there is a point in comparing it to other countries, because it's also not illegal to apply for repeated back-to-back tourist visas to enter the U.S. either, but immigration officials here are fairly alert to people trying to use repeat tourist visas as a way of circumventing the actual immigration requirements because there has been immigration pressure in the U.S. for years.  India may be moving in that direction, particularly if the "quasi-immigration" of ex-pat Brits to Goa in particular is starting to be viewed as a problem.

cyberhippie, on Oct 14 2007, 01:09 AM, said:

Whilst their at it maybe they want to jail those officials in Goa who wrongly let foreigners purchase bits of paper saying they owned houses. I've seen some talk of the responsibilty being with the buyer in checking their eligibility to buy, true but in Goa some are certainly proactive in misleading for financial gain, It would seem they are going to walk away unscathed. Which is plain wrong. I've seen this played out all over India, shady deals made by corrupt officials which backfires in the long run, said officials always walk away smiling. Little guy loses everything!
Get rid of this grey area that seems to engulf so much of Indian life. Take away the powers of bureaucrats  over peoples life and MAKE them work under firm guidelines, with instant penalties for overstepping their powers and corruption!

I actually have the impression that the problem in Goa is not so much corrupt local officials as it is shady developers (who appear to be a mix of Indians and Brits).  For example, Acron Homes, one of the biggest developersand sellers of these properties, has a very, very aggressive marketing campaign in the UK, yet they don't include any warning or notice that ordinary garden-variety foreign nationals on tourist visas can't buy.  They actually discourage potential buyers from seeking independent legal advice and suggest that the buyer should just look to them (the developers) to take care of "the formalities".  And what they say about the formalities is very vague and ambigous.  For example, they say that prominent, Goa-based solicitors "certify" each of their developments.  What the hell does that mean?  The development itself could be legal and the developer might hold clear title to the property and be able to sell legally to somebody (e.g., an Indian citizen), but that doesn't mean that any particular buyer can legally purchase the property.  A lot of these developers/sellers were also the ones giving the bad advice about foreign nationals being able to buy if they "set up a company" and "did their 182 days" in India.  This crap advice wasn't coming from government officials.  It was coming from property developers trying to drum up business.  And the business they are drumming up is in Britain, so I think they should be prosecuted there under some sort of consumer protection laws ... assuming you have any.  Here's a sample of what Acron says on its website:

        Will I get  correct advice about the legalities?
Because of our experience, buyers trust us for correct  guidance on the formalities. Wherever possible, deal directly with the  developer, as some intermediaries may mark up prices. Ensure that all payments  are reflected in the contract i.e. the Sale Agreement that should be typed up  on Goa government stamp paper. Ask about local  registration and tax requirements relating to residency, rental activity, stamp  duty, etc.

            What are the  legalities involved?
Customers may engage a solicitor in Goa, but this is not an essential requirement. Almost all  our clients deal with us directly i.e. without a legal intermediary. At the  contract stage there are no legal fees or expenses. The standard contract  document is equitable, unambiguous, worded in plain English and is accompanied  by a comprehensive dossier containing supporting documents relating to the land  title, planning approvals, etc. Two prominent, Goa-based solicitors and  building societies certify each of our developments. When the freehold  conveyance deed is registered, stamp duty and legal fees of approx. 5 percent  are paid.


Quite honestly, as a lawyer, this sort of thing makes my hair stand on end.  

[cyberhippie]

DZi it's impossible to say if they are tightening up, all you hear is tattle and hearsay, as it's been for years and years. Every year there's rumours of tightening up blah blah blah, to date it's never happened. My mate just scored a 4 year visa for Study in India, something they are also rumoured to have tightened up on................

I perceive the problem to be little central control over the various embassies, with embassy staff interpreting the rules their way. The debacle at the UK embassies illustrates this rather well.

I take your point that one shouldn't EXPECT a new visa but under the current  scheme there's no reason to think everyone will be refused either. In fact most attempts in Kathmandu I've heard about recently have been successful whereas Sri Lanka seems to have some failures So................

As you say visas are discretionary but to date the discretion has been positively applied for the traveller to India and long term stayer, whether that's about to change we'll have to wait and see.
Anyway as I said putting down roots on the basis of this discretion would be very unwise, bordering on the foolish.

If the Indian government want to stop this, as they have very right to do, then wouldn't it be better to state this plainly for all and sundry then everyone knows where they stand.

Personally I hope they don't stop the back to back visas because of the stupid scenario in Goa, which is largely fueled by the usual suspects, who would gladly see the end to all tourism in Goa. this faction has been looking for leverage for years, they appear to have found it via the stupidity of some foreigners.
Much of what is talked about in the newspapers about the Goa situation is guff, especially grass roots feeling about foreigners living in the community. Goans are generally happy with foreigners who live in Goa. Sure they complain about house prices but the Bombay Wallahs will have just as big an impact on local prices as foreigners!

Plenty people have used this for years to live long term in India, they played by the rules and caused little upset in India, and generally made a positive impact in the local communities they chose to live in. Shame that this might change but India is as you say fully entitled to do so.

Dzi trust me officials are involved in this upto their necks you can't do ANYTHING in India without some officials say so and bribes are the way to go. It's this that angers me, they will have made a pretty penny out of this but you'll never see them on the radar scope.

The shysters you mention should be jailed as well. However as you've said in the past some people are just victims of their own stupidity. There's a guy in Patnem who is shady as hell and he's involved in purchasing property for tourists. I tried to warn some people about his way of doing business only to be told to butt out "we know what we're doing we've been to Goa three times now for three weeks"

I mentioned it above but the only real difference in the Goa situation to the ones I've seen elsewhere in India is the fact that foreigners are involved, Half the illegal structures being sealed/knocked down have been deemed "legal" at some point by shady officials sanctioning action for bribes, years later it all falls down about peoples ears and said official is laughing all the way to the bank. This is for years how things were done in India, what would seem foolish to you or I is acceptable practice in many parts of India.

There are a dozen hotels in Bharatpur that were put up on agricultural land, knowingly by all concerned. this was 12 years ago, they paid commercial fees and taxes for all those years yet now there's a change in the local government and someone wants the hotels knocked down as they are illegal. without any compensation for those involved. How can people be so dumb you ask, well if this goes on around you all the time, I guess you start believing this IS the system if we want to go somewhere, just get with the program.

It's this gray area which needs to be looked at long and hard. What we've talked about here is just the tip of the iceberg.

[webswami]

HowieUK, on Oct 14 2007, 07:32 AM, said:

However, this does not come cheap and foreigners end up shelling out around $900 for a one-week stay and travel. Most of the foreigners claimed that the same amount could have been spent in the State.

I think not, I have met and seen some of these people and have noticed what they order in restaurants- chips chips and more chips, oh and a beer.
Why do they love Goa? because it is cheap! I think if they can afford to spend $900 would they not have purchased in Spain? where property purchase is easier than in India (mind you this also has its problems).
or may be the free life style! well this comes with a price!(or occasional rules that you dont agree with!)