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Experiencing The Teaching


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9 replies to this topic

#1 kullukid

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 04:25 PM

Just finished reading this one, here's a few quotes from the book Bati!
He does sound like he's talking a load of Gobbledygook sometimes & tightening "The knot of the heart" as opposed to undoing it, however upon deeper investigation he seems to be very good at intellectually explaining/de-ciphering what Maharaj was hinting at, but whether this is "True Advaita" teaching as expounded  in Maharaj's "simple way" I question????? Anyway Here Goes:

In other words, all functioning is in spite of us, not because of us?

As Maharaj has said some time or another, it is always I that see, but cannot see my seeing; I taste but cannot taste my tasting;I smell but cannot smell my smelling;I touch but cannot feel my touching. Nor can i cognize any cognizing of any part of this functioning.

You mean everything happens only in consciousness, only in my mind as the apparent perceiver?

"Your" mind is only apparently yours. It is not "yours" as such but what you are. If you become conscious of something, then you become the subject & that something becomes the object. The basis of consciousness being  duality, this subject/object relationship becomes a perpetual regression in duality, which can stop only when duality ends in Unicity. It is for this reason that What-You-Are, & What-I-Am, as pure subjectivity cannot be aware. We can only BE awareness, not aware of the awareness.

The search goes on until there is apperception that consciousness is the "I" awareness that cannot be aware of itself because awareness knows no self of which it could be aware, divided & split into cognizing subject/cognized objects, I cognizes every conceptual thing that can be cognized except that which is cognizing. That which is cognizing is not conceivable since it is no thing; and it is no thing since it is not conceivable!

This is so simple, is that all there is?

It is simple when there is apperception- apperception that that which I am (which is all that we are) is the "source inconceivable", sheer inconceivability, the inability to conceive what i am, not merely the interconncted opposites "conceiving" & "non conceiving" - the inconceivability which should reveal that the sought is the seeker & the seeking itself.

So then, is it impossible to comprehend conceptually & dialectically what-we-are?

Perhaps you could put it this way: the not finding of the answer (to the question "what are we") IS ITSELF THE FINDING,
because if this not finding leads to the abondoning of the conceptual search & to the apperception of what non-conceptually we are, such abandonment would include not only the search but, far more sgnificantly, the conceptual seeker himself! What the finding would amount to is:phenomenally speaking, we can be said to be the concept conceived (the seeker) & that which is conceptualizing (the sought) - the seeker being the sought, & vice versa, in other words "conceptuality"; noumenally speaking, we, being"upstream of conptualization" & thus not able to conceive or be conceived are in other words "nonconceptuality".

I must confess i feel the truth of what you are saying but find it difficult to grasp it.

That's just the point! How can you expect to grasp non-conceptuality? Phenomenally our appearance-what we appear to be- is conceptual, whereas what-we-are, being non-conceptuality itself, is clearly unknowable conceptually, i.e. within the apparent limits of space-time. What-we-are non conceptually therefore must necessarily be "the not-knowing of knowing" infinite & intemporal, neither anything or nothing.

What it means then is that what-we-appear-to-be can never cognize what-we-are because what-we-are is what cognizes.

Right!
:grin: KK

#2 batistuta

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 07:59 PM

KK! I agree, When I read his books ( The one in the Mirror and Let life flow) , it was far from simple and Would take Maharaj's '  I am that' , any given day, as it has much more clarity. He does explain theoretical concepts, but it seems to me that he is adding his own twist to Maharaj's teaching ,which is all the more easy for him as Maharaj was only Hinting at the Possibilities.

I could follow it upto 'So then, is it impossible to comprehend conceptually & dialectically what-we-are'.

Would not seeking to know the answer of 'who Am I lead to the same path as "not finding of the answer (to the question "what are we") Is Itself the finding ?


KK, Is he not making it  complicated when Maharaj's Teaching was quite simple to comprehend? He appears to be the Guru of Ram Tzu, who has some interesting quotes in Advaita.org.

Cheers, ;)
Discover all that you are not -- body, feelings thoughts, time, space, this or that -- nothing, concrete or abstract, which you perceive can be you. The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive." -Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

#3 kullukid

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 07:55 PM

View Postbatistuta, on Oct 14 2007, 03:29 PM, said:

I could follow it upto 'So then, is it impossible to comprehend conceptually & dialectically what-we-are'.

Would not seeking to know the answer of 'who Am I lead to the same path as "not finding of the answer (to the question "what are we") Is Itself the finding ?

Bati, i think if you follow Ramesh's logic he would say, Seeking to know the answer "Who Am I" will eventually lead to the "Not finding of the answer" Who Am I, which is itself the finding.


KK, Is he not making it  complicated when Maharaj's Teaching was quite simple to comprehend?

I'm not saying that what he is saying is wrong. He is actually explaining/de-ciphering what Maharaj was hinting at, but the approach he is using seems to lead to confusion because he is going into more detailed (conceptual???) explanations, which is something that other Advaita teachers like Maharaj & Ramanaji tended to avoid doing.
Usually when some realised or enlightened disciple takes over the lineage from the Guru, they then develop their own style of teaching, whereas what Ramesh appears to be doing (& i may be wrong?) is taking Maharaj's teaching & intellectualising it. I read somewhere that he claims that Maharaj was teaching negatively whereas he is using the positive approach. I watched an Eckhart Tolle video recently & he made a similar claim, saying that Krishnamurti taught in the negative whereas he uses the positive approach.
I know you are a bit of a Tolle fan & i also have a lot of time for him, however i do have my doubts because it seems to me that he is adapting Krishnamurtis words.
There is a very good reason why J.K. Maharaj & Ramanaji worked through the negative as opposed to the positive & that is because by looking at things through negation you are not creating new concepts in your mind. Basically in negation you are constantly seeing the false as false, which then leads to a natural dropping away (through Realisation) of the false concepts which the mind as stored over the years, without adding new false concepts (Which we take to be true, relatively speaking) which should lead to you dwelling in/Being conscious of the (Unknowable) Truth which you are! Tat Tvam Asi!
This is why J.K. often said that what was required was a psychological revolution, which can only be arrived at through negation, the positive approach just keeps adding more false concepts which is what the divided self is composed of, so in affect by using a positive method you are actually expanding/strengthening the false self (Ego).
You could say the Positive way is a very Negative way to "BE" whereas "BEING" Negative leads to Positive results.Whoops!, now i'm starting to sound like Ramesh ;)   :)

Here's a link to something you may find interesting regarding Ramesh & a money/sex scandal at one of his gatherings in Kovalam a few years ago:
http://www.inner-que...m#Waynes Letter
:) KK

#4 batistuta

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 03:22 PM

Yes, You are right , KK. One would come to the same conclusion as not finding the answer.   ( I did not realise that) Very detailed and the readers who have read other works might not find it comforting. Maharaj, in his later works ( Ultimate medicine, etc) was more clearer in such aspects.

I am not sure about this guy using a Positive approach. I would say  that Eckhart uses a positve approach, but I agree with you on his using J.k.'s words. In ' first and last freedom' from J.k., there is a chapter on time, that chapter is so similar to what Eckhart Tolle's views on time, ' Psychological time, Clock time', etc, that I would have believed it if someone told me that Tolle had written it. Eckhart also speaks about the inner body, which is the same state the seeker is in, if he is practicing choiceless awareness, Imho.

Eckhart has said that he is a big fan of J.k. and Raman Maharshi and that   his teachings are an integrated version of Both J.k and Maharshi. He feels it's a continuation of their teaching. I have not read any of Raman Maharshi's book's and hence , You would be the best judge, KK, to determine whether what he is saying is true about the integration part of it. Is he right about that statement ?

Agree again on Not adding false concepts and following the path of negation, I used to think that positive approach is better but Now can see the benefits of a Negative approach. Ramesh is quite controversial, apart from that link, he also claims to be the next teacher in line of Maharaj and not many people agree with him on that.

No, kk, You have not sounding like,  Ramesh. I can still understand what you are saying. :P

Edited by batistuta, 17 October 2007 - 03:24 PM.

Discover all that you are not -- body, feelings thoughts, time, space, this or that -- nothing, concrete or abstract, which you perceive can be you. The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive." -Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

#5 kullukid

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 05:50 PM

View Postbatistuta, on Oct 17 2007, 10:52 AM, said:

Eckhart has said that he is a big fan of J.k. and Raman Maharshi and that   his teachings are an integrated version of Both J.k and Maharshi. He feels it's a continuation of their teaching. I have not read any of Raman Maharshi's book's and hence , You would be the best judge, KK, to determine whether what he is saying is true about the integration part of it. Is he right about that statement ?

IMHO, the teachings of J.K. Ramanaji & Nisargadatta are ONE they are all hinting at or pointing to & talking about the same thing, but each in their own unique way/style. Ramanaji said "Who AM I? (Nan Yar?) Nisargadatta said "I AM That" J.K. said  "The Observer is the Observed" or "I AM The World & The World is Me" This is the point i am making that Ramesh & Eckhart seem to be imitating or copying/adapting the teachings of their peers rather than expressing the same message in their own unique style of teaching. This is why i question them, because i have noticed that the truly "Realised Ones" seem to have this creative ability to express the same teaching in a new fresh way without relying on any second hand info from others.
Another thing i have noticed is that the "Catchphrases?" they use have a way of stopping the mind in its tracks,or maybe i should say pushing the divided self to the background & bringing your True Essence (Absolute Consciousness) to the forefront. For example if someone asked Ramanaji or Maharaj "How can i realise the Self?" they would reply "Who is this "i" who is asking?"  This kind of questioning creates a stillness or silence of the mind. Tat Tvam Asi!
So when Eckhart says he is integrating the teachings of J.K. & Ramanaji what is there to integrate? They are already ONE!
:yahoo: KK
http://tchl.freeweb...._july_1955.html

#6 kullukid

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Posted 29 October 2007 - 09:08 PM

Neo-Advaita Demystified

...These things, when they pour down or come in, present themselves with a great force, a vivid sense of inspiration or illumination, much sensation of light and joy, an impression of widening and power. The sadhak feels himself freed from the normal limits, projected into a wonderful new world of experience, filled and enlarged and exalted;what comes associates itself, besides, with his aspirations, ambitions, notions of spiritual fulfillment and yogic siddhi; it is represented even as itself that realisation and fulfillment. Very easily he is carried away by the splendour and the rush, and thinks that he has realised more than he has truly done, something final or at least something sovereignly true. At this stage the necessary knowledge and experience are usually lacking which would tell him that this is only a very uncertain and mixed beginning; he may not realise at once that he is still in the cosmic Ignorance, not in the cosmic Truth, much less in the Transcendental Truth, and that whatever formative or dynamic idea-truths may have come down into him are partial only and yet further diminished by their presentation to him by a still mixed consciousness. He may fail to realise also that if he rushes to apply what he is realising or receiving as if it were something definitive, he may either fall into confusion and error or else get shut up in some partial formation in which there may be an element of spiritual Truth but it is likely to be outweighted by more dubious mental and vital accretions that deform it altogether.

These words by the Indian sage Sri Aurobindo, refer to what he called the Intermediate Zone, a dangerous and misleading transitional spiritual and pseudo-spiritual region between the ordinary consciousness of the outer being and True Realisation.

Although written in 1932 as cautionary words for his disciples, they are more relevant and important today than they were then.

It seems that every other day another self-proclaimed 'enlightened' teacher of Neo-Advaita appears on the scene. These Neo-Advaita guru's have reduced thousands of years of Advaita teachings into the spiritual equivalent of McDonald's junk food. No longer is it necessary for the spiritual student to engage in self-inquiry or inner work on oneself. Now all that is necessary to 'realize the Self' is a constant repetitive denial of one's own identity and the (pseudo) 'understanding' that the ego and all and everything else that happens in the universe (essence and belief systems included) is 'simply an illusion'. Everything 'just happens, there is no path, no cause', so consequently there is absolutely nothing to do.

It's really simple, just like it was for Shankara, Buddha, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Rumi and the relatively few others who are generally agreed to have been enlightened.

What? Wait a minute, I don't recall that it was easy for the above mentioned Masters. Didn't they spend years, and sometimes entire lifetimes meditating, engaged in self-inquiry and inner work? Oh yeah, they did. And this is the problem that exists now, because the Neo-Avaita movement claims lineage from and history from Advaita, but advocates none of the work. In fact they continue to espouse that it is simply not necessary. Merde!

No real work on oneself is necessary, only a constant repetitive denial of one's identity and the 'understanding' that the ego and all (and everything) that happens (essence and belief systems included) is 'just an illusion'. Everything ‘just happens, there is no path’, so there is nothing to do.

Occasionally these self proclaimed 'enlightened or awakened masters' even believe themselves to be superior or more advanced than their own teachers. For example Tony Parsons has declared that Ramana Maharshi was obviously still living from duality and Andrew Cohen has said that his guru Poonjaji was not enlightened – in other words both Maharshi and Poonjaji were asleep and Parsons and Cohen are awake. Yeah, right!

In addition to Parsons and Cohen, the best known English speaking Neo-Advaitin gurus also include Eckhart Tolle and Ramesh Balsekar. Meanwhile there are hundreds of others in Europe, the United States and Australia.

And they all have one thing in common, they declare that they have realized the Self, and awakened to their true nature. And of course they all want to teach (and in some cases) prey upon Neo-Advaita adepts in search of their own liberation. In the process these Neo-Avaitins have bastardized and twisted the original tenets and practice of Advaita until it is no longer recognizable except by the most discerning of adepts. Unfortunately it appears that most adepts are not able to discern the differences between Advaita and Neo-Advaita. Perhaps this will help.

The Path of Advaita according to Shankara

For the purposes of this article, presented below is a very short summary of the pre-requisites needed by a seeker before achieving Self-Realization or Liberation (as specified by Shankara in his Vivekachudamani - The Crest Jewel of Discrimination translated into Tamil by Ramana Maharshi and from Tamil into English by Sir Arthur Osborne).

In order to be qualified for enquiry into the Self, a man must have a powerful intellect and ability to seize the essential and reject the inessential besides the various qualities enumerated in the scriptures. What are these? He must be able to discriminate between the real and the unreal. He must have an unattached mind. He must ardently desire liberation. And he must be tireless in practice Only such one is qualified to enquire into Brahman. The qualifications are enumerated as follows:

1. Discrimination between the real and the unreal.
2. Disinclination to enjoy the fruit's of one's actions.
3. The six virtues of tranquility, self-control, withdrawal, forbearance, faith, and concentration of the Self.
4. Intense yearning for liberation.

The aspirant must indeed have these qualities in order to attain abidance in the Self; without them there can be no realization of the Truth.

This then is the simplified version of Shankara's instructions for truth realization.

The Neo-Advaita Shellgame

Contrast this with what is necessary according to Neo-Advaita. Which is nothing. Absolutely nothing is necessary except for a strategy of denial. Neo-Advaita teachers simply declare or fool themselves into believing that their identity/ego doesn't exist, in fact, that nothing really exists and everything is simply an illusion.

This can easily done by anyone, just give it a try and you’ll see. Take a few minutes now and start rebuffing everything you perceive, everything that comes up in yourself, including yourself. If and when you do this regularly, you may find yourself getting hooked by the fundamental Neo-Advaita trickery. Of course there is also a bit of cheating necessary. You need to be ready and willing to deny values and ethics and if you are ready and willing to cheat yourself then you’re ready to be enlightened the Neo-Advaita way.

Having integrated Neo-Advaita will bring up the joy of a constant feeling of superiority. You will also be rewarded with the feeling of constant rightness and will never be proven wrong anymore no matter what you say or do. Simply because nothing is real – all is illusion. Who is there to be wrong? Merde !

Traditional Advaita says that the ego is an illusion. The ‘Satsang Prophets’ emphasize this as THE starting point, completely omitting that this realization may only occur at the end of years of self-inquiry and work on oneself (and not necessarily with any certainty). Once this premise is understood and the self-cheating is engaged, one obtains a constant very pleasant feeling of superiority and invulnerability. This is what they regard as being the ultimate accomplishment and they believe that it is the same as that lived and taught by Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and even Shankara, although in reality it’s nothing but the Neo-Advaita version of nihilism. (If this is what you’re looking for Parsons, Tolle, Balsekar and their cohorts are a good choice for teachers.)

Giving satsang allows them the opportunity to meet obedient and easily hypnotized listeners to whom they can teach what apparently is so easy to understand: 'Everything is just an illusion.'

Below are other common features of these teachers:
1. "Uncomfortable" questions are evaded. The evasion strategy is easy because in the background there is a safe haven: neither I nor the other exist.
2. Essence - Essential Value is seen on the same level as identity: as being non-existent.
3. An attitude of utter arrogance/vanity (How can I be wrong? The one who can be wrong doesn't exist, only those who still believe that there is anything other than illusion are wrong).
4. Total absence of humility ("who cares?") and ethics.

The result is mind-f_____g at it's purest - spiced with some borrowed and misunderstood Advaita wisdom.

A real seeker is one who has the desire, commitment and talent to 'make' it. But it's difficult for me to say if a real seeker automatically has the discrimination to avoid falling into the Neo-Advaita trap. There may be a question of destiny, luck and/or grace involved.

Some adepts who have difficulties in switching off the self-delusion have ended up in mental hospitals (paranoid syndrome), others have had the courage to jump to the teacher role and give satsang which gives their 'non-existent' ego the recognition and food for continued survival.

Life becomes a play between 'enlightened' nihilistics or between a self-declared nihilist and an ignorant fool who just serves as 'confirmation-that-I'm-right' food. As this is so obvious, there seems to be a kind of collective self-hypnosis that is happening on a relatively large scale.

Neo-Advaitins tend to evade inquiring questions because these types of questions challenge their axiom 'that they don't exist and everything is an illusion.' Instead they use words that disguise: “How can I be wrong since I don't exist as a separate 'I'? Therefore I am always right.

This all occurs not as a result of work on themselves but as a starting point of all that is (re)presented. Of course, at a certain point, one needs to cheat oneself in order to do this. When cheating oneself any and all sincerity towards oneself is eliminated. This cheating arises when it comes time to deny the humanness, what Jesus meant with “the son of god” and what Meister Eckhart said when he referred to the “Gottesgeburt im Menschen”, “the birth of God within man”.

Through constant repeated self hypnosis (telling yourself that everything ‘just happens’, only ‘here and now’ exists, you then slip into a 'super-identity' based on overall denial of ego/identity. Sadhana is an unnecessary burden because the one who does this has simply not understood that all is illusion, even work on oneself (so "why care?").

Instead of considering the realization that everything is just an illusion as the result of years of inquiry and guided work on yourself, just take it as starting point, an axiom, a self-evident truth. Once this self-generated ruse is accomplished you will automatically come to the conclusion that self-enquiry (Ramana Maharshi) or work on oneself (Gurdjieff) or a guru (Nisargadatta Maharaj) are just illusionary un-necessities.

If you feel offended by what has been written:
Either you need to become a bit more tricky in denying your own and the author’s existence (isn’t everything just an illusion?). Or you’re not yet completely hooked by the Neo-Advaita game and you might want to reconsider if this is the direction you want to take.

I offer to you the following dialog from Nisargadatta Maharaj...

Nisargadatta: “To go beyond the mind, you must have your mind in perfect order. You cannot leave a mess behind and go beyond. He who seeks Liberation must examine his mind by his own efforts, and once the mind is purified by such introspection Liberation is obtained and appears obvious and natural.”

Q: "Then why are sadhanas prescribed?"

Nisargadatta: "Freedom to do what one likes is really bondage, while being free to do what one must, what is right, is real freedom."

Q: "How can the absolute be the result of a process?"

Nisargadatta: "You are right, the relative cannot result in the absolute. But the relative can block the absolute, just as the non-churning of the cream may prevent butter from separating. It is the real that creates the urge; the inner prompts the outer and the outer responds in interest and effort." "You seem to want instant insight, forgetting that the instant is always preceded by a long preparation. The fruit falls suddenly, but the ripening takes time."

"The way to truth lies through the destruction of the false. To destroy the false, you must question your most inveterate beliefs."

POSTSCRIPT

So by now, since you have chosen to read this through to end, I suppose that you might be asking yourself, “Why should I listen to you? Who the hell are you anyway?” And the answer is that you shouldn't listen me. Anymore than you should listen to Eckhart Tolle or Tony Parsons. At least not without truly listening to yourself. What you can do is search into the very depths of yourself, not taking someone else's (anyone else's word) for anything. Instead listen to your heart and seek a teacher who teaches you how to eliminate the unnecessary burdens and who at the same time promotes the blossoming of your essence (your essential value), your divine nature, the best of the best that resides in the core of your (and his) humility.

If you have found this article useful, interesting, stimulating, controversial or you just like to 'stir the pot', submit and/or post it to the appropriate websites, forums and newsgroups; perhaps you and I together can play a small part in awakening a few people from the Neo-Advaita trance.

-- Author unknown

Source; http://spiritualteac...ita_article.htm

#7 batistuta

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 10:39 AM

A very interesting and Timely Article, KK. Thanks for sharing. No Idea on who Tony Parsons is, but after joining the Eckhart Forum, I have read about a few Neo-advaita teachers. There are lots of them and I feel it is better to accept the teachings one Individual and see how it works in Practical Life.
Discover all that you are not -- body, feelings thoughts, time, space, this or that -- nothing, concrete or abstract, which you perceive can be you. The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive." -Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

#8 kullukid

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 06:28 PM

Tony Parsons is a Neo Advaitist writer/speaker/teacher from the U.K. who is building quite a large following. Here's his site;
http://www.theopense...com/index.shtml
I'm attending a talk by another U.K. Non-duality speaker/writer/teacher? this Saturday in Leeds. Here's his site;
http://www.nickroach.co.uk/index.htm
:) KK

#9 batistuta

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 02:15 PM

kk, Nice links. I enjoyed reading Nick Roach's replies to questions, this one in Particular.

http://www.nickroach...being_alone.htm

Please do post How the talk went.

Thanks,

:)
Discover all that you are not -- body, feelings thoughts, time, space, this or that -- nothing, concrete or abstract, which you perceive can be you. The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive." -Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

#10 kullukid

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 06:18 PM

View Postbatistuta, on Oct 31 2007, 08:45 AM, said:

kk, Nice links. I enjoyed reading Nick Roach's replies to questions, this one in Particular.

http://www.nickroach...being_alone.htm

Please do post How the talk went.

Thanks,

:D

Hi Bati, the talk was very interesting, but it didn't seem like the teaching was complete to me, however he had done a couple of previous talks at this place previously which i didn't attend, so i had the feeling he had skipped part of his teaching rather than repeating what he had already explained at previous meetings. By the way the meeting was organised by the Leeds Eckhart Tolle Silence Group, which meets once a week.
As for Nick roach's claim of being enlightened i wouldn't like to comment, since they say only someone who is enlightened would know if someone else was. In England we have a saying "It takes ONE to know ONE" & since I AM not ONE yet i shouldn't make judgement.
I had a short talk with Nick & he seems a very nice genuine person, i am trying to arrange for him to give some talks at the Leeds & Bradford Lodges of The Theosophical Society next year.
Here'sa link you may like;
http://www.advaya.nl/
:D KK