[Somerset]

kullukid, on Sep 21 2007, 03:32 PM, said:

Steady on Somerset this almost sounds like we are agreeing!!!!! Where's the fun in that?     

What a frightening thought!  I think we are probably close to agreement on many things.

Regarding the missing years of Jesus, he was really a Kiwi:

http://www.immortali...rk/missing.html

Edited by Somerset, 22 September 2007 - 05:26 AM.

[iwanttogoback]

cy

you are right when we say that we make gods in our image, but i know that if you read the christian texts there is a God there who is not made in my image, rather i am made in God's image. i think we make gods in our image because that makes life easier for us: 'my god (who just happens to resemble me) says x,y and z.' something i think is worth remembering is that we are human with all the frailties that that implies, so it's hardly surprising that we do things like this.

i'm not familiar with the texts of other religions but i'd be prepared to bet that the situation is the same - followers remaking god in their image.

i don't think it invalidates religion, rather just demonstrates that firstly, we are human and not god, and secondly (well, for me at least) that i need to be mindful of my humanity when discussing religion so that i can try not to fall into that trap of making God look like me.

i don't know if many of you are familiar with all of the narnia books, (or if i have posted this before, forgive me if i have ) but at the end of the books the world ends. i won't go into detail but the gist of the message is that all those truthfully believing in and searching for God enter heaven regardless of who they worshipped on earth.

Quote

I've always felt the road to enlightenment, is a road few realise and can only be taken by the individual, I'm not even sure the role of Gurus in this. It's a personal journey that should be unfettered by opinion or instruction.

as i said before, i don't know very much about other religions, but in christianity there is no concept of enlightenment. what christians seek is salvation which is attained simply by belief in jesus as the son of God.

[jyotirmoy]

PD I agree with you. The final quest is Atmanam biddhi...

[Somerset]

I think there are two separate discussions on this thread: one historical and one spiritual. The original direction of the thread, "was Jesus a yogi"?, is historical and can be answered by scholarship. I don't think we can answer historical questions by rumor or contemplation.

The other discussion is related to the nature and path toward salvation and/or enlightenment. I doubt if the salvation discussed by IWTGB is similar in concept to the enlightment discussed by KK, but don't know. Is the relationship between Brahman, the guru, and humanity the same as that between God, Jesus, and humanity, and is shakti the same as the Holy Spirit of Christians? We are all humans, and it is likely that a certain amount of common ground exists between all religions simply due to shared experience. A major point of contention seems to exist, however, regarding the nature of god in the different religions: is god imminent or is god emminent? That issue seems open to debate among Catholics, although the popes wouldn't agree that it is an open question. I wonder how St. John of the Cross would have fared with KK's enlightenment quiz.

The more I think about these issues, the more I think that there is no god, imminent or emminent. I doubt if there is a true afterlife or some ultimate spiritual union with god. What you see is what you have, and I think I would be better served by studying Jean Paul Sartre than either Ramakrishna or Thomas Merton.

I desparately hope I am wrong.

Edited by Somerset, 22 September 2007 - 09:22 PM.

[kullukid]

Yes it's gone a bit OT but what the heck!
I was asking the question  "was Jesus a yogi"?, in a spiritual sense........only joking Somerset!   
The question can be looked at historically & spiritually, but i think we have already touched on the subject that the historical fact of J.C.s life is very sketchy & incomplete with large gaps in his life history & like i said before the fact that there is next to no records of J.C written by the Romans who were meticulous at recording everything in writing seems strange. There are many "Scholars" claiming J.C. did not exist or that he visited/lived in India.
Spiritually all this is immaterial, because even if he never existed & the life of J.C. is purely allegorical, we can't deny the fact that many of his parables & sayings can be translated to have very similar if not identical meaning to some of the Hindu teachings.

I would say ultimately salvation & enlightenment when understood at the deepest level are the same thing. Salvation means deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption. Enlightenment means escape from the power & penalty of Karma  brought about through ignorance (sin?).

Interesting link:http://www.thercg.org/books/jwis.html?cid=g0102&gclid=CMSqquyc3I4CFQESEgodv0pvAA

Bramhan, the Guru & the disciple are one!

Spirit comes from the Greek pnuema & can be defined as Soul (Atman in Hinduism) or Breath (Prana or vital life force or vital energy that creates continuous life in Hinduism)
Shakti is Kundalini which can be raised through special Yogic breathing techniques using Pranic energy or Pranayama.

Kundalini is an innate inner energy in every human being, it sits in the sacrum, at the base of the spine, unless cultivated remains dormant. Kundalini is prana, essential life-force in a highly potent form. The ancient Indian yogic mystics the Siddhis referred to Kundalini as Shakti, the divine feminine energy within us, which when cultivated was the key to self-realization, health and longevity. Kundalini clears negativity and awakens higher consciousness.

http://www.kundalini...om/PAGES/kd.php
http://www.gutenberg...13402/13402.txt
http://www.zakairan....icBreathing.htm

The Sanskrit word Purusha  is another word for soul or spirit.  The early Upanishads and the Bhagavad-Gita use the term to mean an individual's spirit, psyche, essence, or immortal Self. In Sankhya philosophy, purusa is the first principle (tattva), pure contentless consciousness, passive, unchanging, and witness to the unconscious dynamism of Prakti, primordial materiality.
http://www.experienc...val.com/purusha
http://www.britannic...9061966/purusha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purusha

I'm sure St John of the cross would have passed with flying colours. I hope you are not losing your faith Somerset! Personally i think the best approach to finding out is to say "I don't know" it removes all doubt! KK

[kullukid]

cyberhippie, on Sep 21 2007, 04:47 PM, said:

With trepidation I'll add my two cents worth!

Brave man! Celtic or Rangers???     

I've always found ALL religions tainted by the hand of man, the ego, jealousies, seperation, way's to enlightenment, for me they all seem to come from the mouth of Man.

I think you mean tainted by the  mind or EGO of man, it seems to be the cause of all our problems including Religion & is where all jealousy, seperation etc stems from.

We even create the Gods in our own image, WHY?

Some claim God created man in HIS image in other words we are physical creators of life through the act of sex we create new life, just like God.So why as man made sex such a Taboo in the world of Religion?? So it seems only natural that man would then create images of God in his own likeness, but the problem is man adds attributes like Good & Pure etc to these images which then gives man something to aspire to. The thing is that most of the Great Religious Messengers spoke out against this kind of Idol worship. Man seems to have ignored them.

I've always felt the road to enlightenment, is a road few realise and can only be taken by the individual, I'm not even sure the role of Gurus in this. It's a personal journey that should be unfettered by opinion or instruction.
Hmm' yes it's a personal journey, but the personal seperate self (Ego) is what's at fault according to most religions. At the highest level a Guru or guide becomes neccessary to point the way, because what the Sages & Holy Men are actually talking about is not possible to talk about, it transcends Mind or thought or knowing, they can point beyond Mind. If you became more adventurous & said sod India (God forbid) i'm going on a trek in the deep Amazon forest this year then you would need a guide to point you in the right direction,(because you would be entering unfamiliar ground to the Mind) otherwise you could get lost & end up going round in circles, just like we do now in the never-ending cycles of birth & death

One undeniable trait of human beings is the dilution of pure ideas when we attempt to structure or form groups around an idea, we seem very fallible in this, A trait amply illustrated in our holy teachings, which are more than a little peppered with the frailties of the human condition, albeit in the guise of the word of God!

Are there any PURE IDEAS in the first place? or are they all tainted by DEAD past experience???

IMHO       KK

[crvlvr]

kullukid, on Sep 24 2007, 08:30 AM, said:

Are there any PURE IDEAS in the first place? or are they all tainted by DEAD past experience???

The pure ideas are your own. Any idea that is communicated and recommunicated gets transmogrfied.  Hence, self realization, as indicated by many scriptures,   may be the only way to 1.  see god 2. achieve salvation/niravana, take your pick.  This is probably why meditation/prayer is given so much importance.

[kullukid]

Here's some info on a Christian Mystic with what appears to be some very Advaitistic  views of The At-One-ness with God:

http://www.spiritual...tte_roberts.htm
http://www.sentientp...hat_is_self.php
http://www.sunypress...ls.asp?id=52519
http://www.sunypress...ls.asp?id=52812

[kullukid]

Now even respectable christians are considering the possibility of JC living in India!! See this prog;
http://quicksilversc...tch?video=34568
Told y'all    KK

[kullukid]

Now they've made a film about it.     http://jesus-in-indi.../html/home.html       http://www.yogananda...s_in_india.html

[vasala]

Jesus a Yogi? Very much possible considering the greatness of this enlightened personality who could influence a huge number of world population. There are stories of him visiting himalaya and being a student of Sanatana Dharma, the core of Hindu religion. Current Vatican might deny those because it is grown as a business unit which is very protective about it's interests.

Highly enlightened yogis are always emanated from Hindu spirtuality as it is an open free religious reservoir. Many religion sub divisions are also started from this ancient great religion in the past like Budhism, Jainism, Sikh, etc. In the future if you see Babism(Sai Baba) or Amrithaism (Mata Amrithanandamayi), do not get surprised.  

So which says every enlightened personalities can have their own derivation of Hinduism and create their own packages of religion. Jesus Christ might have done that too. Sematic religions generally create groups around  one enlightened personality and create rules around it. Then when it grow out of proportions, it's survival etc makes it more complicated.

So if you look at Hindu, there si no conversion, there is no establishment. It run through people's mind. It will spread by it's own might. I recently heard Hindu is spreading like a fire in USA and Australia these days. Some statistics say about 2 million Hindus in USA. Amazed when I heard one California country celebrated Sanskrit day lately and every year.

I have lots of respect fro Jesus Christ, but not a fan of organized religious practices.

[videoindia]

Haven't the time right now to read all the exchange and to go to the links...

Just to say that OSHO - The Mustard Seed is an awesome book on that matter.

Jesus was an enlightened...

Olivier Conrardy
www.video-India.com
video India