[kullukid]

Here's an interesting link
Was Christ a Yogi?
By Swami Abhedananda of the
Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, Calcutta

http://www.hinduism....s Christ a Yogi?

[Somerset]

I feel like we've been here before, but...

I think Swami Abhedananda's coments do a disservice to both Christianity and Judaism. To say that

"The religion of Christ or true Christianity had no dogma, no creed, no system, and no theology. It was a religion of the heart, a religion without any ceremonial, without ritual, without priest-craft. It was not based upon any book, but upon the feelings of the heart, upon direct communion of the individual soul with the heavenly Father. "

is, I think, to ignore the firm grounding of Christ, and Christianity, in the ancient Hebrew scriptures. Much of the gospels demonstrate Jesus' knowlege of, and belief in, those scriptures. He, or at least the authors of the gospels, were aware of the context of the messiah in those scriptures. He knew the prophesies he was to fulfill, and his early encounters with the rabbis in the temple highlighted his deep understanding of those scriptures. He did not arrive out of nothing, and must be judged in the context of the prevailing religion. He was the new Adam, and doesn't one have to understand who the old Adam was in order to understand  the new Adam?

Anyway, that is my take on this.

[cyberhippie]

I'm a spiritual philistine but WHERE did he go during the huge gap in his life, To India where he learned something of Yoga and spiritualism...........................Why not, from this point on you can extrapolate a lot of ideas about miracles and Christianity.

I can't really delve further into my thoughts on this as I wouldn't want to offend.

[Somerset]

Not gonna offend me, but I think we should try to be accurate. The gospels devoted a fair amount of space to placing Jesus in the theological context of the time, and I don't think it is fair to lift him out of that context (as Swami Abhedananda did) without good reason. I also don't think it is neccesary to invoke a trip to India to explain the New Testament, but it is fun.

[cyberhippie]

Told you I was a philistine, so there is no real "gap" in the new testament where Jesus goes walkabout then..................Oh well ther goes another theory  

[crvlvr]

Somerset, on Sep 11 2007, 10:07 AM, said:

...I think, to ignore the firm grounding of Christ, and Christianity, in the ancient Hebrew scriptures. Much of the gospels demonstrate Jesus' knowlege of, and belief in, those scriptures. He, or at least the authors of the gospels, were aware of the context of the messiah in those scriptures. He knew the prophesies he was to fulfill, and his early encounters with the rabbis in the temple highlighted his deep understanding of those scriptures. He did not arrive out of nothing, and must be judged in the context of the prevailing religion. He was the new Adam, and doesn't one have to understand who the old Adam was in order to understand  the new Adam?

IMHO, did not live in compliance to the existing scriptures, which is why he was rejected by many of the jews. That alone reflects, that he did not belive in them. Now, christians would cliam that he was the messiah so he was allowed to do that. But, to many who know eastern philosophy, will say Jesus is no different than many of yogi that they have read about or seen.  We also have to keep in mind the almost all that we know of Jesus comes from the New Testament which was written  hundreds of years after the death of  Jesus and compiled by a political process. Ofcourse, there was a lot of vested interest to make him as unique as possible to ensure that t the religion thrives.

[Somerset]

crvlvr, on Sep 11 2007, 06:26 PM, said:

IMHO, did not live in compliance to the existing scriptures, which is why he was rejected by many of the jews. That alone reflects, that he did not belive in them. Now, christians would cliam that he was the messiah so he was allowed to do that. But, to many who know eastern philosophy, will say Jesus is no different than many of yogi that they have read about or seen.  We also have to keep in mind the almost all that we know of Jesus comes from the New Testament which was written  hundreds of years after the death of  Jesus and compiled by a political process. Ofcourse, there was a lot of vested interest to make him as unique as possible to ensure that t the religion thrives.

Not sure I want to get into a protracted discussion about; I'm sure others are better suited to argue than I am. However, I don't think that the gospels were written hundreds of years after he died. After he died, certainly. But not hundreds of years. I also think a distinction should be made between the theological context and the political context; he clearly rejected the political context, but I don't see the evidence that he rejected the theological context.

[Somerset]

cyberhippie, on Sep 11 2007, 06:00 PM, said:

Told you I was a philistine, so there is no real "gap" in the new testament where Jesus goes walkabout then..................Oh well ther goes another theory  

Just don't think he had to go to India, that's all.

[Ray kelleher]

I bought a book the last time i was in India, called Jesus's life in India, i can't remember the name of the Author, but it was for sale pretty much at every book stall on the main bazaar in Pahragang.. Interesting read about how he supposedly studied Buddhism and was in fact an enlightened one and .. I wish that i did not pass it on now as i would love to read it again...

[jyotirmoy]

No comments from me as I am very ignorant in religious matters. Jesu's birthday is celebrated at Ramkrishna Missions.

[kullukid]

From what i have read Ramakrishna had a keen interest in the life of Jesus & often quoted from the Bible as did many other famous Swami's, such as Abhedananda.
Swami Abhedananda read Notovitch's account of "The Unknown Life of Christ" and in 1922 as a skeptic of this work he decided to travel to the Hemis Monastery himself to attempt to verify whether or not documents actually existed that documented the sojourn of Jesus Christ in India.  
http://www.tombofjes...otovitch-p3.htm
  
He wrote a book about it called "Journey into Kashmir and Tibet" wherein he quotes some of the Sloka's that were translated to him by one of the Hemis Monastery monks. Here is a translated copy of the Sloka's:

http://www.atmajyoti...nknown_life.asp

http://www.tombofjes...swami/swami.htm
http://www.ramakrish...org/swamij.html

In more recent times a book was written on the subject by Holger Kirstencalled "Jesus Lived in India" who dedicated years of his life investigating these claims & spent lots of time in Ladakh & Kashmir where he claims to have visited the tomb of Jesus, who he claims did not die during the crucifixion but escaped to Srinagar where he lived until a ripe old age. Here's the Tomb in Srinigar: http://www.tombofjes.../2007/home.html

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm
http://www.thaiexoti...ristianity.html
http://www.geocities...geo/savior.html
There was another great healer & prophet around at the time of Jesus called Apollonius of Tyana. Some claim they were the same person, others claim Jesus was purely based on the story of Apollonius, others claim that Apollonius was a re-incarnation of Jesus & it is he who is in the tomb in Srinagar.
Jesus and Apollonius of Tyana both did remarkable feats, healed the sick, they were clairvoyant and prolific Esoteric Teachers of the Ancient Wisdom. Interestingly from these two Masters Apollonius' name is all but forgotten by the masses.

http://www.creedoped...lonius-of-Tyana
http://www.apolloniu...masquerade.html


There are others who say Jesus never actually existed & that the story is a myth & that there is no real conclusive records or proof of his life to say that he did, the Romans were meticulous at recording everything yet there doesn't seem to have been any records or writings relating to Jesus at the time.
Some say that the story was purely symbolic.
The "Disciples" are the Signs of the Zodiac
Moreover, it is no accident that there are 12 patriarchs and 12 disciples, 12 being the number of the astrological signs, or months. Indeed, like the 12 Herculean tasks and the 12 "helpers" of Horus, Jesus's 12 disciples are symbolic for the zodiacal signs and do not depict any literal figures who played out a drama upon the earth circa 30 C.E. The disciples can be shown to have been an earlier deity/folkloric hero/constellation.Peter is easily revealed to be a mythological character, while Judas has been said to represent Scorpio, "the backbiter," the time of year when the sun's rays are weakening and the sun appears to be dying. James, "brother of Jesus" and "brother of the Lord," is equivalent to Amset, brother of Osiris and brother of the Lord. Massey says "Taht-Matiu was the scribe of the gods, and in Christian art Matthew is depicted as the scribe of the gods, with an angel standing near him, to dictate the gospel." Even the apostle Paul is a compilation of several characters: The Old Testament Saul, Apollonius of Tyana and the Greek demigod Orpheus.
Here's the full story:
http://www.truthbekn...om/origins6.htm
http://www.ard.net/S...us_christ.shtml

Then there are others who claim that all the religions of the past are symbolic & are all telling the same story which as been passed down throughout mankinds history on earth, many of these claim that Jesus, Horus, Krishna, Buddha etc are all telling the same story/message.

http://www.burningcr...ing-theory.html
http://www.theosophi...heChristJR.html
http://www.bandoli.n...iginaljesus.htm
http://www.wilsonsal...us_similar.html
http://laluni.helloy...;/beth1019.html
http://www.geocities...e79/godmen.html
http://igbo.biz/book.../iu/iu106.shtml
http://www.specialty....ations.html#c1

What about Abraham/Brahma?
http://www.viewzone.com/abraham.html
http://www.augustmys....heserpent.html

What about Jesus Horus Zarathustra?

http://www.bandoli.n...iginaljesus.htm
http://www.geocities...e79/godmen.html
http://www.wilsonsal...us_similar.html

There are others who claim that all these characters existed in real life & the reason that their life stories seem so similar is because they were all mystics who lived symbolic lives which all told the same underlying message symbolically.
I'm not saying i believe or disbelieve any of the above, but i do find it all very interesting, as you've probably noticed!    KK

[iwanttogoback]

Quote

"The religion of Christ or true Christianity had no dogma, no creed, no system, and no theology. It was a religion of the heart, a religion without any ceremonial, without ritual, without priest-craft. It was not based upon any book, but upon the feelings of the heart, upon direct communion of the individual soul with the heavenly Father. "

is, I think, to ignore the firm grounding of Christ, and Christianity, in the ancient Hebrew scriptures. Much of the gospels demonstrate Jesus' knowlege of, and belief in, those scriptures. He, or at least the authors of the gospels, were aware of the context of the messiah in those scriptures. He knew the prophesies he was to fulfill, and his early encounters with the rabbis in the temple highlighted his deep understanding of those scriptures. He did not arrive out of nothing, and must be judged in the context of the prevailing religion. He was the new Adam, and doesn't one have to understand who the old Adam was in order to understand the new Adam?

somerset, i couldn't have put it better myself. it is impossible to understand jesus and christianity without understanding both the old and the new testaments.

both jesus and the apostles/disciples saw themselves as jews. the concept of christianity as a religion did not exist but came later as followers began to understand that they could not exist in the jewish faith. the gospels were not written hundreds of years after jesus, but probably in the two to three generations after him. the idea that jesus and his followers created a new, very different religion is a perception of 2000 years of the development of christianity and its differentiation from judaism. the reality was very different, a small band of apostles travelling the known world and setting up small churches in the cities they visited. many of the churches that paul writes to in his letters were probably only a few dozen people at that time.

jesus did not see himself as a non-jew, but as the son of God come to fulfil the prophecies of the old testament, particularly isaiah. he was rejected, not because he was not jewish, but because he failed to fulfil the dreams of the jewish people who saw him as a temporal messiah who would save them from the roman empire. i don't think that the jews of the time saw him as non-jewish, but as a jew who had promised what they thought was an earthly kingdom.

[kullukid]

Many of India's most famous Holymen have shown a keen interest in studying The Bible & the life of Jesus. The famous Sri Yukteswar (who was the Guru of Swami Yogananda who wrote "Autobiography of a Yogi") who was the disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya who in turn was the disciple of Mahavatar Babaji, wrote a book following the instructions of Babaji to complete a work showing the eternal truths and similarities hidden both in Christian and Hindu religions called "The Holy Science" In the introduction, he states the goal of The Holy Science thus:

“The purpose of this book is to show as clearly as possible that there is an essential unity in all religions; that there is no difference in the truths inculcated by the various faiths; that there is but one method by which the world, both external and internal, has evolved; and that there is but one Goal admitted by all scriptures.”
Specifically, Sri Yukteswar demonstrates the underlying unity between Sanatan Dharma and Christianity, by comparing Sanskrit slokas to passages from the New Testament, especially the Book of Revelation.

http://en.wikipedia....he_Holy_Science
http://www.angelfire.com/yt/Yukteswar/
http://en.wikipedia....iri#_ref-holy_0
http://www.yssofindi...olysc_puri.html
http://www.srfpublis...pages/1901.html

Sri Yukteswar's disciple Swami Yogananda also wrote a book called The Second Coming of Christ: The Resurrection of the Christ Within You. (Krishna consciousness????)

http://www.amazon.co...p;link_code=as3

[kullukid]

More alternative views regarding the life of J.C. http://www.xs4all.nl...christmyth.html KK

[crvlvr]

KK,

I justed wanted to say thanks for all the info. I enjoyed your posts and all the links. I am still going through them. did not want you think that your efforts were wasted.

Whether or not JC was a yogi, was a real person or fictional, we must admit that most of what he (allegedly) preached, if followed by humanity, will do all of us good. My only problem is the current belief that one can make it to heaven ONLY through JC.  This makes christianity exclusive and puts it at odds with other religions.

Most of the comaprative studies have been limited to the judeo-chrstian-islam (JCI) sects. In these studies, these three religions have each established their own positions. However,  when one starts comparing these religions (together they represent about half the world population.) to the rest (mostly eastern), then we are left with many unanswered questions about similarties in events and characters between the easter religions (which typically predate the JCI religions) by hundreds if not thousands of years.  Now, is this coincidence, or did the JCI "borrow" from the older religions?

[kullukid]

crvlvr, on Sep 21 2007, 02:12 AM, said:

KK,
Whether or not JC was a yogi, was a real person or fictional, we must admit that most of what he (allegedly) preached, if followed by humanity, will do all of us good. My only problem is the current belief that one can make it to heaven ONLY through JC.  This makes christianity exclusive and puts it at odds with other religions.

I agree with you wholeheartedly CRV even if it's only symbolic & he never actually existed?????
I Couldn't agree more about "the current belief" but whether J.C. ever made that claim is very debatable.
Didn't he say "The kingdom of heaven is within you."?? And what about the messages  "Be still and know that I AM God" (Psalm 46:10).Or even "I AM THAT I AM"  (Exodus 3:14).The use of the words I AM suggests Mystical parlance just like Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj who wrote "I AM THAT" in other words I AM (SOUL) is THAT (BRAHMAN or GOD)
In the Chandogya Upanishad "Tat Tvam Asi" translates as 'That thou art'. In other words THAT Brahman which is the common Reality behind everything in the cosmos is the same as  THOU "I AM" the essential Divinity, namely the Atman (THE SOUL), within you. It is this identity which is the grand finale of Upanishadic teaching, according to Advaita. The realisation of this arises only by an intuitive experience and is totally different from any objective experience. It cannot be inferred from some other bit of knowledge.
Which sounds to me like St Paul's "Peace That Passeth All Understanding"?????

Who is this 'Thou'?
'Thou' stands for the "I AM" the inherent substratum in each one of us without which our very existence is out of question. Certainly it is not the body, mind, the senses, or anything that we call ours. It is the innermost Self. It is the Ātman (SOUL).
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Tat_Tvam_Asi

Now if "the current belief" is saying you can only make it to Heaven through "Christ consciousness" (Christ within), which is the same as "Krishna Consciousness" in other words by realising our  "Absolute SELF Consciousness" as opposed to the"limited/conditioned self consciousness" of man, then Christianity would not be exclusive. Unfortunately as with most religions the majority of it's followers are not prepared to compare there religion with the Heathens!

http://www.kingdomno.../w-inyou01.html
KK

[Somerset]

crvlvr, on Sep 21 2007, 01:12 AM, said:

My only problem is the current belief that one can make it to heaven ONLY through JC.  This makes christianity exclusive and puts it at odds with other religions.

Like KK, I also wonder if this was Jesus' intent. The first four books of the NT (the Gospels) were written less than 100 yrs after his death and provide four different views on the life of Jesus. The rest of the NT is, I think, more commentary on these four books than anything else, and may have been subject to political considerations for inclusion in the NT. I could be wrong, but I think John is the only book in the Gospels that explicitly states that only through Jesus can one know God (to paraphrase a couple of passages). These passages may then be subject to interpretation and should be placed in the historical context of the time. I don't think it is fair to assume that, since Jerry Falwell et al. think that Christianity is the only way to God, this is what Jesus taught.

Is Christianity alone in saying that there is only one true religion? Osama bin Laden recently offered to spare the US if we converted to Islam, and I was once told by a devout Hindu that she was more spiritually advanced than I would ever be simply because she was born a Hindu. I think there are people that pervert the message of every true religion.

Edited by Somerset, 21 September 2007 - 09:29 PM.

[kullukid]

Somerset, on Sep 21 2007, 03:54 PM, said:

Like KK, I also wonder if this was Jesus' intent.

Steady on Somerset this almost sounds like we are agreeing!!!!! Where's the fun in that?     
Also compare Aham Brahmasmi - "I AM Brahman" to "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14).
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mahāvākyas

Somerset you said:Is Christianity alone in saying that there is only one true religion? Osama bin Laden recently offered to spare the US if we converted to Islam, and I was once told by a devout Hindu that she was more spiritually advanced than I would ever be simply because she was born a Hindu. I think there are people that pervert the message of every true religion.

ALL religions appear to have this exclusive attitude. Now wouldn't it be nice if it was discovered that there is an underlying truth in all Religions & that they were all in fact talking about the same thing. That we are all one! KK

[cyberhippie]

With trepidation I'll add my two cents worth!

I've always found ALL religions tainted by the hand of man, the ego, jealousies, seperation, way's to enlightenment, for me they all seem to come from the mouth of Man.
We even create the Gods in our own image, WHY?

I've always felt the road to enlightenment, is a road few realise and can only be taken by the individual, I'm not even sure the role of Gurus in this. It's a personal journey that should be unfettered by opinion or instruction.

One undeniable trait of human beings is the dilution of pure ideas when we attempt to structure or form groups around an idea, we seem very fallible in this, A trait amply illustrated in our holy teachings, which are more than a little peppered with the frailties of the human condition, albeit in the guise of the word of God!

[Shiver me Timbers]

This is a nice discussion.

Thanks.