[Somerset]

Earlier this week I heard a fantastic lecture on Indian art by a former curator of the National Museum of Asian Art (Freer-Sackler galleries in DC).

Why is there such a close connection between sacred images and the sensual in Indian art? Why are Shiva and Parvati portrayed as lovers, with graceful forms that are not hidden by much clothing?

The opposite is true of western sacred art, which seeks to desexualize the depiction of most deities.

She focused on Chola bronzes, but made it clear that  this trend is apparent in art from around the subcontinent. The talk was highlighted by translations of sacred songs and poems that also refer to deities in very physical and sensual terms.

Western mystics have spoken of their relationships with the divine as a bride waiting for the bridegroom, but this concept didn't translate to sculpture and painting to the degree it did in India.  She was careful to separate the depiction of deities from the more erotic carvings of people.  The general portrayal of deities in sensual terms appears to have been lost from India in recent centuries, and she attributes this to the influence of the Moghuls and the British.

Well, that's what I learned in school this week.

[john.sw]

I have often wondered about the erotic nature of some ancient art in India and the total contrast it seems to have with modern Indian society.

How do you explain this?

 Khajurahosm.jpg   101.56K   25 downloads

[Somerset]

john.sw, on Apr 13 2007, 06:24 PM, said:

How do you explain this?

Khajurahosm.jpg

??? I'd love to hear an explanation for that one!

[jyotirmoy]

If you go thru the literature dating back to the age of Buddha you will find a very different social scenario. An extremely liberal society where there was hardly any inhibitions. Courtisans and prostitutes were respected and lived in the city. Many played important roles in politics and culture. It was the invasion by Afghans and later on Mughals which changed the outlook of people. People by that time had withdrawn themselves. As the freedom went away the liberal attitude also left. Women withdrew almost completely sticking to the indoors for safety. The Afghan & Mughal regimes also imposed strict codes of do's & don'ts. All these that changed the society.

Similarly if you go thru the ancient scriptures like the Upanishads you will find hardly any thing around "Sin" The Almighty was not some one who was there to "rescue" the sinners.

[batistuta]

jyotirmoy, on Apr 14 2007, 09:10 AM, said:

Similarly if you go thru the ancient scriptures like the Upanishads you will find hardly any thing around "Sin" The Almighty was not some one who was there to "rescue" the sinners.

Sin is more Primarily associated with Chirstianity than Sanatana Dharma. So, I don't think that almighty is ever there in Hinduism to rescue the sinners. There is just re-birth. Completely agree with you about the reasons why a liberal culture like ours has become so frigid now.

[digital drifter]

john.sw, on Apr 13 2007, 11:54 PM, said:

I have often wondered about the erotic nature of some ancient art in India and the total contrast it seems to have with modern Indian society.

How do you explain this?

Khajurahosm.jpg

Why? How much more graphic does it need to be?

Public bestial buggery.


Must have gone out of fashion; that's why it's not so common.....now

Or maybe it is still around;  Check the sheep in Oz and NZ.  They know a lot in these matters.

[torryquine]

Paagla Dashu, on Jun 8 2007, 06:19 AM, said:

I hear rumours that the sheep in Wales too are quite knowledgeable in the subject.  

The goats of Africa could tell a story or two...  http://news.bbc.co.u...ica/4748292.stm

[kullukid]

batistuta, on Jun 7 2007, 02:07 AM, said:

Sin is more Primarily associated with Chirstianity than Sanatana Dharma.

True Batistuta,but where in the Bible does it say that sex is a sin (even with an ass!)   It does say you shouldn't covet thy neighbours Ox, but i don't think it means in that way!   Surely nothing would exist without sex???? it's where the world/nature appears to come from!   KK

[torryquine]

Somerset, on Apr 13 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

Why is there such a close connection between sacred images and the sensual in Indian art?

OK I've stopped sniggering and will be sensible now.

I think it is to do with education.  How else can you teach people about the facts of life in a society where few
have access to books, printed materials, images, etc.  Literacy is also an issue.  Renaissance paintings are full of symbolism
that is obscure to us now, but would have been read and understood by the most humble church-goers. Or think about the caves of Lascaux,
the rock paintings of Kakadu - art as education.  All of our cultures are full of it, some are less frank in the subject matter, or have had the
more explicit stuff erased by later, more prurient custodians.

Our modern world is full of similar images - fairly graphic bill-boards educate the illiterate of developing
countries about AIDS, rape, domestic abuse, etc.  Advertising and web gurus know that how to tell a whole story through one image.

In a society free of prudishness but short of educational materials, it is only natural that all aspects of life be illustrated on the walls of the place of worship/education.

The gorgeous Hoysala temple at Somnathpur is a great example of the sacred, the sensual and the mundane, exquisitely carved on the same walls.
Domestic scenes across the whole spectrum of life occupy one of the freizes surrounding the temple, overlooked by delicately carved deities,
at a height that can be appreciated by child of say ten.

[Somerset]

torryquine, on Jun 8 2007, 06:17 PM, said:

I think it is to do with education.  How else can you teach people about the facts of life in a society where few
have access to books, printed materials, images, etc.

For deities, a good explanation is that the erotic/sensual comes closest to the intensity of emotion the artist wants us to feel for the deity. I'd love to hear an explanation for John's carving of zoological explorations. I hope it's not a how-to manual for barnyard lovers or a way to keep your livestock happy.

Edited by Somerset, 09 June 2007 - 12:35 AM.

[crvlvr]

Jyoti has already touched on why Indian soceity were forced to become more conservative -- both the Mughals and the British helped.  

Sexual Art: Hindu philosophy celebrates lover and sex. It is essential for life to go on. (This shiva linga(m) is a phallic symbol and is worshipped by milions) However, it also recognizes that it can be an impediment to spiritual progress.  Many temples have erotic carvings on the outside as a test. If the devotee is excited  or attracted to these, it is best that he/she stay outside. It is only when he/she has overcome  the temptation should he/she enter.  

We have to keep in mind there was no religious police to monitor this.  "To each his own" was the basic mantra.

Nudity: It is quite possible that male and female forms were depicted in the attire that was common in those days. Many ancient foreign historians have commmented that the common man/women in India did not wear much clothing

Edited by crvlvr, 09 June 2007 - 03:55 AM.

[noflylist]

crvlvr, on Jun 8 2007, 05:24 PM, said:

Nudity: It is quite possible that male and female forms were depicted in the attire that was common in those days. Many ancient foreign historians have commmented that the common man/women in India did not wear much clothing

When I was studying in Ranchi in Zharkhand in 1980s, it was quite common for native (adivasi) women to be topless in surrounding villages. Nudity in that culture was not associated with sexuality. Times may have changed now...

[cyberhippie]

Goodness I was just about to pose certain questions only to find them already answered by crvlvr.

[noflylist]

Another source http://www.auroville...001/adivasi.htm talks about adivasi culture thus:

Quote

Until some fifteen years ago, the tribal Adivasis of the Khamam district lived in the deep forests, like their forefathers remaining naked except for the lower parts of their bodies, which they covered with bark, animal skin or loin cloth...

wikipedia defines Adivasi as

Quote

Ādivāsīs (आदिवासी), literally "original inhabitants", or tribal people comprise a substantial indigenous minority of the population of India. Indian tribals are also called Atavika (forest dwellers, in Sanskrit texts), Vanvasis or Girijans (hill people, e.g. by Mahatma Gandhi

[batistuta]

kullukid, on Jun 8 2007, 05:45 PM, said:

True Batistuta,but where in the Bible does it say that sex is a sin (even with an ass!)   It does say you shouldn't covet thy neighbours Ox, but I don't think it means in that way!   Surely nothing would exist without sex???? it's where the world/nature appears to come from!   KK

KK, I was not speaking about sex being a sin in Christianity. I was speaking about the concept of sin as in 'original sin' which is a concept of Christianity. I meant that sin is more associated with Christianity(as in Os) than in Hinduism.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Original_sin

Best Wishes,

[iwanttogoback]

kk and batistuta

i would be very interested in how you chaps define sin.

[batistuta]

Iwtgbk,  Sin, In My defn would just mean Missing the mark. Not living in the present moment and missing the essence of life. Thinking  about the past and worrying about the future.  . Many people live life this way and just miss life itself.

I don't agree/believe in the religious connotations or stories(which would have been exaggerated or mis-translated over a period of time)  associated with the word sin.

The term is borrowed from old english archery There is some conjecture to say that the word may have been derived from Indo-european languages which where it meant 'just be".

[batistuta]

PD,  As you know, Sanskirt has multiple  meanings for the same word. Based on the context, one can mean any one of the intended meanings. I do not knw where it has come from.

papa: (Sanskrit) "Wickedness; sin, crime."

1)    Bad or evil.

2)    Wrongful action.

3)    Demerit earned through wrongdoing.

[iwanttogoback]

Quote

Iwtgbk, Sin, In My defn would just mean Missing the mark. Not living in the present moment and missing the essence of life. Thinking about the past and worrying about the future. . Many people live life this way and just miss life itself.

I don't agree/believe in the religious connotations or stories(which would have been exaggerated or mis-translated over a period of time) associated with the word sin.

The term is borrowed from old english archery There is some conjecture to say that the word may have been derived from Indo-european languages which where it meant 'just be".

how strange - in the last week that's the second time i've heard sin described this way, although the explanation was that the original word was latin.

the first time was in the context of a discussion of st paul and his writings on sin which, unlike later church writings, were not a checklist of things to be done or not done but rather an understanding of sin as anything which comes in the way of us allowing God to come closer to us.

unfortunately, later christians somehow managed to transform this into a very legalistic theology whereby we could get closer to God by obeying a series of laws. and somewhere in there the focus became very much about flesh which became, of course, all about sex!

[retiredchutney]

i thought sodomy was a sin in christianity.