[priya]

I think, at least for me, one of the most daunting aspects of travelling in India, is the treatment of animals.  As much as I love India and its people, I find it confusing and heart-wrenching to see how the animal population has to suffer at the hand of man when one of the most basic cultural traditions is ahimsa (non-violence.)

The cow, held sacred to most Hindus scrounge in the filth for their meagre bits of food.  I wont even talk about the packs of dogs who roam the streets and alleys, some skin and bone, others with broken limbs, some even minus a limb, diseased, fly-bitten, open wounds and wary of humans because of what’s been meted out to them.  Horses, on the beaches in Chennai, there for the pleasure of tourists and locals alike, beaten, their rib cages visible, eyes sunken.  The elephants at the Amber Fort in Jaipur with their sunburned ears, trundling up and down the slippery cobblestones day after day carrying tourists………why – so the tourists can say they’ve ridden an elephant??

Okay, call me an animal freak…but other than trying to stop someone beating a dog or explaining the pain they're causing, is there anything else anyone can do???

This is something that really does bug me.  

Does anyone else feel the same?

[crvlvr]

While the "treatment" animals receive in India are visible to the general public, in western countries, the "treatment" happens behind closed doors.  While they are no specific studies, some estimates indicate that in the USA alone 12 million pets are euthanized each year.  While it is difficult for a tourist to watch these animals forage the streets in India, do you really think 12 million of them die each year on the streets?

Also, about 2.8% of the US population is vegetarian  compared to India's 30%. An average american consumes 200 lbs (90kgs) of non-veg a year. Can you imagine the increase in number of animals that will have too bekiled if India consumed non-veg at the same rate as the US?   My calculations tell me it works out to 56 million cows.

I think India is being more humane to animals even though it may not be apparent.

[malkers]

Good topic, right with you on this one Priya.

I live just a few kms from Bannerghatta National Park which is so say held in great esteem.  It is a disgusting place, the cages are like prison cells and many animals are alone in a cage with absolutely nothing to keep them amused, just concrete and the rotten people who taunt them regularly.  If you stand and look at them quietly and long enough you can see it in their eyes, almost begging to be helped to freedom.  The safari free roam park is better just because they have more space but of course the guys belting round in the buses have absolutely no respect for the animals there or their surroundings, we stopped once because a huge bison was on the track ahead and instead of waiting an watching patiently the guide gets out and starts throwing rocks at it from a distance, the bison was not amused of course, its his fecking home  

When I first went to Agra I'd heard about the dancing bears at the borders, I was facinated to see if this was really still happening and it was and I was disgusted by it, I snapped a couple of shots and then had this guy banging on my window demanding money from me, I of course told him what I thought of him and where to get off!  I have heard since that this no longer goes on and that these bears have been rounded up and are in a sanctuary though I'm not sure how true this is.  Jen was on her way to work a few days ago when unbelievably on the Ring Road is a guy walking down the street with a damn bear on a rope, yes right here in Bangalore and nobody batted an eye lid.  I'd have gone and kicked this guy, seriously I would.  A guy with two monkeys on a rope in Varanasi dared to come to me to beg whilst I was in a rickshaw, he didn't know what hit him, I would so love to see him getting a taste of his own medicine.

On the streets of Kolkata and since in Bangalore I saw several guys with parakeets in cages so small they couldn't lift their wings, whats that all about  

Daily I see dogs having stones thrown at them and daily I see cows being beaten with sticks and there ends my understanding of the whole holy cow issue related to religion, I'm sure beating them wasn't part of the original plan.  I also see them with their front legs bound with rope to their back legs and sometimes their head is thrown into the equation, horses too.

Monkeys are quite fierce here in Bangalore and its no wonder, it was their home once and they are treated as vermin.  Shanthi is proof that if you show these animals some respect they will return it.  A coule of weeks ago I had the shock of my life when the door right in front of where I'm now sitting came open and I saw a flash of fur, I shouted out of fear as much as anything and this huge old monkey stared at me and left rather slowly, later on I heard small footsteps upstairs and went up to find him looking down the stairs at me, he hissed and walked out again through the upstairs door.  He has been 3 times since but now we have an understanding.  He makes himself visible through my window and sits and waits while I get him a couple of biscuits, he gratefully eats the biscuits and then we just look at each other for five minutes or so almost talking without words.  He doesnt invade my space and I don't invade his, he leaves quietly and comes back sometimes and goes through the same thing, its not difficult and its very rewarding.

Sorry Cvrlvr, I think animals are far better off put down humanely than being left to suffer, I think the same for humans in many respects too, I'm damned if I ever want to die a slow death of something like cancer, just give me the needle!

My 2 rupes worth!

Malc

[torryquine]

malkers, on Aug 23 2006, 12:05 PM, said:

When I first went to Agra I'd heard about the dancing bears at the borders, I was facinated to see if this was really still happening and it was and I was disgusted by it, I snapped a couple of shots and then had this guy banging on my window demanding money from me, I of course told him what I thought of him and where to get off!  I have heard since that this no longer goes on and that these bears have been rounded up and are in a sanctuary though I'm not sure how true this is.

The bears were very much there in December 2004 - it's an absolute disgrace, but the problem is that western visitors continue to make it worth the while of the men who do this.  We saw plenty of people stopping to take pictures and pay the fee....

I absolutely agree with you Priya - you know that.  But I really don't think the west sets an example worth following.  We still permit mass slaughter in mechanised abatoirs, hunting for fun, and practices like greyhound racing where thousands of unwanted dogs are uncaringly disposed of once they are no longer fit to run.

[iwanttogoback]

and don't forget horse racing - have just this minute had to comfort madam princess over a horse that had a heart attack during a race and crashed through the barrier. no news about the horse though, just the jockey!

[crvlvr]

malkers, on Aug 23 2006, 04:05 AM, said:

Sorry Cvrlvr, I think animals are far better off put down humanely than being left to suffer, I think the same for humans in many respects too, I'm damned if I ever want to die a slow death of something like cancer, just give me the needle!

I am not condoning the way animals are treated by te public at large  in India.  But, when ne has to dela with thier nuisance on a daily basis, one's patience runs thin. (Talk to any biker one who has struck a stary dog in the middle of the night and crashed) I don't want to harp on how animals are treated in the west as that was not the OP's subject matter.  I just want to use it as apoint of reference. Scientists till recently though animals did not feel pain, or emotion. "humane" standards  were based on those assumptions. There are enough videos that will show how animals are trated in the west.

I am with you on euthanasia -- but one has to make that choice for themselves.

[YETI]

malkers, on Aug 23 2006, 04:35 PM, said:

When I first went to Agra I'd heard about the dancing bears at the borders, I was facinated to see if this was really still happening and it was and I was disgusted by it, I snapped a couple of shots and then had this guy banging on my window demanding money from me, I of course told him what I thought of him and where to get off!  I have heard since that this no longer goes on and that these bears have been rounded up and are in a sanctuary though I'm not sure how true this is.

Sadly not true at all, mate.

I was there in July this year and there were blokes with dancing bears and monkeys on strings on the Delhi-Agra road.

Grim.

[digital drifter]

Quote

daily I see cows being beaten with sticks and there ends my understanding of the whole holy cow issue related to religion, I'm sure beating them wasn't part of the original plan. I also see them with their front legs bound with rope to their back legs and sometimes their head is thrown into the equation, horses too.

that's true.  Only the truly religious are depraved.  A couple of years, the BJP banned cow slaughter; net result more animals on the street, old cows starving to death in the milkman's place(it's not economical to feed them) AND still the sick cows' meat is sold as beef after it died a slow death.  All so that a couple of fecking do gooders thought they had compassion for the 'holy' cow.  Demented the lot of them.  Oh yes, there were a couple of 'sanghas' established to feed the cows.  But you already know what would have happened to the money allocated for animal grain to feed them, don't you?

and we seem to have a lot of them here in this country. I remember reading in the Hindu about an old lady in Madras beseeching the cart owner *not* to load so many sacks on the cart for fear the scrawny oxen might collapse.  Apparently, he thought the woman was daft.

One of the reasons I always have a scowl on my face is that;  THe complete abandonment of 'care' whether human or animal especially when they become ill. carts loaded with iron ballast; animals with wounds carrying stuff. the whole ugly works.

Charles dickens would have been so proud and Black Beauty would be eating plastic bags from garbage bins on day 2 of being born.

[john.sw]

It is difficult for many people to understand how animals in India can be treated so badly.

So how do you explain this?

[dzibead]

john.sw, on Aug 25 2006, 10:48 AM, said:

It is difficult for many people to understand how animals in India can be treated so badly.

So how do you explain this?

And everybody is grinning except the kid with the ... thing ... in his mouth.  

And, dd, you should be writing a newspaper column.  You've really come out with some articulate "rants" lately (here and also over at IM - thinking of your recent Gandhi comments)

[digital drifter]

john,

That's the Murugan body piercing crowd!  People take up a 'kavadi' (a promise with religious paraphalenia taken along) the twist is, there is alot of body piercing, especially tongues and cheeks.  Less gruesome than the crucification rituals in Manila or shia self flagellation rituals in Iraq/Iran.

Some politicians/teleevangelists who hear the voices of God....I wish their inner Gods told them to do this.  preferably their tongues nailed to the asphalt, in summer.

I'm day dreaming a lot these days.

[Poiple Shadow]

One of the problems with looking after pets in India is that one, leads to another, and another, especially as we live here and have lots of visitors, each time someone sees an animal, they bring it round to us or another of our friends who have a similar care for animals....  We've thought about changing our name from Children Walking Tall to Animals walking tall... :os - As well as our 'own' pets (cats, dogs, chickens), we also have a group of Monkeys that frequent our garden (more like pests as they jump on our roof and break the tiles and also steal all the fruit from our trees ( - We also have lots of neighbours dogs that come in as they like a bit of a fuss which they rarely get from the locals who seem pretty scared of dogs at least....  Where we used to live we even had our neighbours dumping animals in our compound as they new we'd look after them... :os

[H.Nick]

The only place I've seen Kavadi is in  the far off, remote, uncivilised, tribal farthest reaches of ..............

Archway, North London.

Several times, actually. I've even taken part to the extent of being one of the musicians ---not to the extent of the piercing though!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But all is not bad on the animal front. Most of the cows, goats and dogs that I see around this part of Chennai, at least, are fairly healthy-looking creatures.

Given that the dogs do not live in pampered domestic bliss like our friends in the West do, many do not have such a bad time, attaching themselves to watchmen and even  houses, geting food and attention.  I have met Indian people who have taken in street dogs who became, through some hurt, unable to support themselves in the pack.

One of the houses we saw on our house-buying hunt, the people had a street dog with a deformed paw, fed a local family of cats, and had one cat, now aged and blind, living permanently in a comfortable box in their house.

Cats tend to fare worse than dogs here, as they are not usually accepted as holdhold animals except by poorer people.

Chennai zoo is not bad, either.  It may not be as good as, say London, but it is pretty good, and they do quite a lot of rescue work too, adopting animals that have been abandoned by circuses (aparently one particular circus has a bad name for just dumping animals that are no longer wanted ), and, recently an orphaned elephant, and ---what are those creatures that look like tiny monkeys called?  Anyway, someone spotted this one in a cage in a restaurant, recognised that it was actualy a rare species and that it was in need of proper care --- it was rescued and given to the zoo by the authorities.

It is not all good either: I do see bullocks pulling loads that are far too heavy for them.  Also, even if I did like it I would never buy beef in India: cattle are subject to great cruelty on their long., long way (slaughter of cattle is only legal in Kerala and Bengal) to the slaughter houses.

A mixed picture. It is not all good, but it is not all dire and terrible either.

As to the motorcyclists who colide with dogs in the night ---well, it  might help if they turned their bloody headlights on and drove a bit more carefully!!!!!

[Phantom]

So much hue and cry about .. stray dogs.. !!
The same stray dogs when given food by somebody becomes so loyal that they start biting the neighbours.. oops.. now those guys only give food not the vaccination.. so who is responsible ??

I guess the responsibility is wholly with the government. They should provide the shelter to these stray animals. and more importantly pick them up off the streets.. same goes with cows and pigs.

And when some organization try to make those shelters for these cows and dogs, people get so very skeptic that they also loses the zeal after sometime.

Now the question is of bear and monkeys being made to dance. but they are doing it for centuries. Shouting at them wont solve the problem. How will they feed their family?? Do goverment provides them with alternate job ??  No. Do you provide them with some work ?? No. you just click the pic or fume.. wow..!! The good standard of living in west maybe gives you that sensibility that you feel hurt. But the truth is there are so many people dependent on this for their living. If its the question between putting a monkey in a small cage and getting two times meal for my family or setting that animal free and die of hunger, then even I would gladly choose the former.

[iwanttogoback]

Quote

If its the question between putting a monkey in a small cage and getting two times meal for my family or setting that animal free and die of hunger, then even I would gladly choose the former.

seems to be a very valid point, if not a pleasant one. what a vexed argument, especially when it comes to people's livelihoods.

[H.Nick]

Shanthi, on Aug 28 2006, 08:26 AM, said:

Have you ever been to the Children's Park in Chennai, Nick?

The one at Guindy? No, Shanthi, I haven't. Is it bad?

I've heard awful stories of Indian zoos, and was reluctant to visit Chennai zoo, but I was pleasantly surprised by most of it.

[torryquine]

H.Nick, on Aug 26 2006, 07:50 PM, said:

(slaughter of cattle is only legal in Kerala and Bengal)

Meghalya also.

I take your point Paagla and Phantom - where a country has so many people in need of food and basic care, why worry about animals?  However, I know I started a thread similar to this on the old site, where I made my own observation that however rational this point of view is, compassion simply doesn't work like that.  Those of us with the luxury of western sentimentality towards animals are always going to struggle with this aspect of Indian life.

Having said that, I lay the blame for the treatment of dancing bears firmly at the feet of foreign tourists (not only westerners).  If they did not make this practice worth doing (by paying for it), it would not continue and those who exploit bears for economic gain would simply find another way of extracting $s from tourinsts.

[priya]

Phantom........Whilst I 'almost' agree with what you say, viz a viz

Quote

If its the question between putting a monkey in a small cage and getting two times meal for my family or setting that animal free and die of hunger, then even I would gladly choose the former.

there is no necessity for cruelty. If you are going to use an animal to help you earn your keep, surely it's in your best interest to treat it properly?

The animals that roam the streets in India didn't ask for that lifestyle.  Man has been responsible for this, and, if you'll excuse the expression, it's a dog eat dog situation out there. Humans behave in the same manner if it's survival but, man can speak up, animals unfortunately don't get to have their voices heard, irrespective of their treatment at the hands of man.  Children too suffer and are unable to speak for themselves - so where does that leave us,  the supposed 'superior' of all species?

I agree that it's a difficult situation, but compassion for our fellow creatures has to start somewhere.....initially with the parents educating their children that it's morally WRONG to hurt another living being.

Quote

The good standard of living in west maybe gives you that sensibility that you feel hurt.

I don't live in the west and people here can be just a cruel and insensitive to the pain of others, but it all boils down to educating those who inflict pain and trying to get them to realize what they've done - either in anger or ignorance.